BLACKROCK CREDIT ALLOCATION INCOME TRUST, BLACKROCK NEW YORK MUNICIPAL BOND TRUST, BLACKROCK ADVISORS, LLC, RICHARD E. CAVANAGH, KAREN P. ROBARDS, MICHAEL J. CASTELLANO, CYNTHIA L. EGAN, FRANK J. FABOZZI, HENRY GABBAY, R. GLENN HUBBARD, W. CARL KESTER, CATHERINE A. LYNCH, ROBERT FAIRBAIRN, and JOHN M. PERLOWSKI, Defendants-Below, Appellants, v. SABA CAPITAL MASTER FUND, LTD., Plaintiff-Below, Appellee.
No. 297, 2019
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE
January 13, 2020
Submitted: December 4, 2019
Court Below: Court of Chancery of the State of Delaware, C.A. No. 2019-0416-MTZ
Upon appeal from the Court of Chancery. AFFIRMED in part, REVERSED in part, and REMANDED.
William M. Lafferty, Esquire, D. McKinley Measley, Esquire, Thomas P. Will, Esquire, Morris, Nichols, Arsht & Tunnell LLP, Wilmington, Delaware. Of Counsel: Tariq Mundiya, Esquire, (argued) Sameer Advani, Esquire, Alexander L. Cheney, Esquire, Brittany M. Wagonheim, Esquire, Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP, New York, New York for Appellants BlackRock Credit Allocation Income Trust and BlackRock New York Municipal Bond Trust.
The issue we confront in this case is whether under their respective bylaws, two closed-end investment funds, BlackRock Credit Allocation Income Trust (“BTZ“) and BlackRock New York Municipal Bond Trust (“BQH“, and with BTZ, the “Trusts“), properly excluded their shareholder, Saba Capital Master Fund, Ltd. (“Saba“), from presenting its slate of dissident trustee nominees for election at the respective annual meetings. The Court of Chancery held that such exclusion was improper. It reasoned that the supplemental questionnaires that Saba‘s nominees were asked to complete (the “Questionnaire” and collectively, the “Questionnaires“), exceeded the bylaws’ scope and, thus, the Trusts were “not permitted to rely on the five-day deadline for Saba‘s compliance with that request.”1 It also held that laches did not bar Saba‘s claims for equitable relief.
On appeal, the Appellants contend that the Court of Chancery erred by issuing an injunction requiring the Trusts to count the votes for Saba‘s nominees at the respective annual meetings, since they claim that Saba‘s nominees were ineligible for election because of their failure to timely provide supplemental information in accordance with the clear and unambiguous bylaws. Appellants also contend that the court erred in holding that Saba‘s claims for equitable relief were not barred by laches.
I. BACKGROUND
Defendant-Appellants BTZ and BQH are Delaware statutory trusts registered as closed-end investment funds under the federal
Plaintiff-Appellee Saba, a Cayman Islands company, holds shares of both Trusts. Saba is managed by Saba Capital Management, L.P., whose managing member is Boaz Weinstein.
A. The Bylaws
Article I, Section 7 (“Section 7“) and Article II, Section 1 (“Section 1“) of the bylaws of BTZ and BQH (collectively, the “Bylaws“) are relevant to this appeal. Both sets of Bylaws are identical with respect to those sections.
Section 7, entitled “Nomination of Directors,” sets forth the method by which shareholders can nominate trustees to the Board.2 The section begins by stating that “[o]nly persons who are nominated in accordance with the following procedures shall be eligible for election as directors of the Fund.”3 Section 7(f) further states that “[n]o person shall be eligible for election as a director of the Fund unless nominated in accordance with the procedures set forth in this Section 7 of this Article I.”4
When nominating directors for election, under Sections 7(a)–(c), stockholders are required to give timely written notice of a nomination (a “Nomination Notice“).5 Section 7(d) enumerates what a Nomination Notice must contain, which includes “information to establish to the satisfaction of the Board of Directors that the Proposed Nominee satisfies the director qualifications as set out in Section 1 of Article II.”6 It must also contain information required by federal securities laws, including information relating to whether
Section 7(e)(ii), the provision in the Bylaws at issue here, reads as follows:
A shareholder of record, or group of shareholders of record, providing notice of any nomination proposed to be made at an annual meeting or special meeting in lieu of an annual meeting shall further update and supplement such notice, if necessary, so that:
(i) the information provided or required to be provided in such notice pursuant to this Section 7 of this Article I shall be true and correct as of the record date for determining the shareholders entitled to receive notice of the annual meeting or special meeting in lieu of an annual meeting, and such update and supplement shall be delivered to or be mailed and received by the Secretary at the principal executive offices of the Fund not later than five (5) business days after the record date for determining the shareholders entitled to receive notice of such annual meeting or special meeting in lieu of an annual meeting; and
(ii) any subsequent information reasonably requested by the Board of Directors to determine that the Proposed Nominee has met the director qualifiсations as set out in Section 1 of Article II is provided, and such update and supplement shall be delivered to or be mailed and received by the Secretary at the principal executive offices of the Fund no later than five (5) business days after the request by the Board of Directors for subsequent information regarding director qualifications has been delivered to or mailed and received by such shareholder of record, or group of shareholders of record, providing notice of any nomination.8
B. The Nominations Dispute
On or about March 30, 2019, Saba delivered a timely Nomination Notice to the Trusts pursuant to Section 7 to nominate four individuals for election to both of the Trusts’ Boards. The Nomination Notice, according to the Court of Chancery, generally contained the information required under Section 7, “albeit at a high level and without much context or explanation.”11
Approximately three weeks later, on April 22, 2019, the Trusts’ counsel, Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP (“Willkie“), emailed Saba in separate emails requesting additional information. Willkie‘s transmittal email request stated:
Pursuant to Article I, Section 7 of the bylaws of the Fund, I am writing on behalf of the Board of Trustees of the Fund (the “Board“) to request additional information with respect to the nominees submitted by Saba Capital Master Fund, LTD (the “Shareholder“) for election at the Fund‘s 2019 shareholder meeting. Please have each of the proposed nominees
complete and sign the attached questionnaire and return it to my attention with а copy to Janey Ahn, Secretary of the Fund.
The Board and the Fund each reserves all rights and remedies with respect to the subject matter of this correspondence, including without limitation the right to request additional information from the Shareholder or from the Shareholder‘s proposed nominees.12
Although it referred to Section 7 generally, the email did not specifically reference Section 7(e)(ii) or the five-business-day response deadline. As explained below, the attached Questionnaire contained a mix of questions, with a significant number of them directly relating to the Section 1 qualifications. Under Section 7(e)(ii), the responses were due on April 29, 2019.
Saba did not respond to the information request before the due date. On the morning of May 1, 2019, seven business days after making the information request, Willkie emailed Saba on behalf of BTZ declaring that because the Questionnaires have not been completed and returned, “the [Nomination Notice] is invalid under [BTZ‘s] bylaws and Delaware law.”13
That evening, for the first time since sending the April 22, 2019 email inquiry, the Trusts received a response. Saba‘s counsel, Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP (“Schulte Roth“), emailed Willkie contesting the invalidity determination. It contended that the Trusts’ “assertion is incorrect, for several reasons,”14 and claimed that the Trusts’ rejection of the nominations was based “on an overly narrow interpretation of the Bylaws [and] is a
It then defended Saba‘s lack of response on several grounds. First, Schulte Roth argued that Saba was not obligated to respond to the Questionnaire under the Bylaws because the Trusts sought duplicative information, as the Nomination Notice already contained information sufficient to determine whether the nominees were qualified to serve as a director of an investment company.16 It further explained that the Trusts could determine, from the information provided in the Nomination Notice, whether the nominee is an “interested person” pursuant to the relevant provisions of the 1940 Act.17 Schulte Roth also asserted that the information requested was unreasonable because it was duplicative, and to the extent there were any non-duplicative requests, those were “particularly unreasonable” because it refers to information “unrelated to the issue of whether the nominees meet the director qualifications as set forth in the Bylaws.”18
Schulte Roth asserted, assuming arguendo that a response was required, that the five business day deadline had not yet been triggered (Saba‘s “Trigger Theory“). They articulated that position as follows:
Second, even assuming, arguendo, that a response is required, the time for providing the response has not yet run. Article 1, Section 7(e)(i) of the Bylaws provides that a shareholder making a nomination has an obligation to “update and supplement” its notice so that the information provided therein is true and correct as of the record date for the annual meeting for
which the notice is being provided, and any such update or supplement must be delivered no later than five business days after such record date. The reference to “subsequent information” in Section 7(e)(ii) plainly indicates that the information called for in that section is to be provided after the “update and supplement” required by Section 7(e)(i) and the record date. As such, because the record date has not yet passed, the Board‘s request was premature.19
In other words, Schulte Roth understood the two subsections of Section 7(e) to be a conjunctive sequence whereby a request under Section 7(e)(ii) could be made only after the events in Section 7(e)(i) (that is, an update and supplement and the passing of the record date) had occurred. Indeed, Saba‘s counsel told the Court of Chancery that Saba and the nominees had begun filling out the Questionnaires on April 22, but did not believe the Questionnaires were subject to the five-business-day deadline under Section 7(e)(ii).20 It nevertheless attached completed Quеstionnaires to its email response “[i]n an effort to resolve this matter amicably.”21
On May 7, Willkie responded to Schulte Roth and reiterated that the Nomination Notice was invalid because Saba failed to timely submit the Questionnaires, and that the Boards, in the exercise of their business judgment, determined not to waive the deadlines.22 Willkie noted in its response that Saba‘s contentions in their May 1 response “appear to be litigation positions that Saba hastily concocted as soon as it realized that it had missed a
Saba responded later that day arguing that the nominations were not invalid under the Bylaws and that the Boards were breaching their fiduciary duties.29 Two days later, on May 9, 2019, Saba sent another letter reasserting that its nominations were valid, and provided explanations for the deficiencies in the Questionnaires the Trusts had noted in its May 7, 2019 correspondence.30
BTZ filed its preliminary proxy on May 20, 2019, expressing the same position as to Saba‘s nominations. Saba filed its BTZ preliminary proxy the next day. BQH filed its definitive proxy on May 24, 2019, announcing that the annual meeting would be held on July 18, 2019, and instructing stockholders to “discard any proxy card from Saba as any votes with respect to [its nominees] will not be counted at the meeting.”34 Saba filed its BQH definitive proxy on May 28. On June 5, 2019, BTZ filed its definitive proxy and set
C. The Questionnaire
The scope of the Questionnaire is at the center of this dispute. The cover page of the Questionnaire states:
This Annual Questionnaire will provide BlackRock with the information needed to:
- preparе regulatory filings, including registration statements filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, amendments to such registration statements, annual reports and proxy statements;
- determine whether a Director or nominee may be an “interested person” of a Fund set forth in Schedule I (a “Fund“), as that term is defined under the
Investment Company Act of 1940 , as amended, and therefore not an independent Director;- evaluate potential conflicts of interest;
- update records; and
- comply with other applicable laws and regulations.36
There are two parts to the Questionnaire—the general questionnaire, and an “Annex A.” The Questionnaire instructs that, in addition to completing the general questionnaire, “[i]f you are nominated to serve as a Director at this year‘s Annual Meeting of Shareholders, please complete Annex A - Supplemental Questionnaire for Nominees.”37 The Questionnaire as a whole, when counting the sub-questions, consists of nearly one-hundred
The Court of Chancery requested that the parties provide demonstratives “categorizing whether each of the subpart questions in the Questionnaire related to Section 1‘s director qualifications or some other purpose.”42 Saba claimed that only one-third sought information relevant to the Section 1 qualifications, whereas the Trusts contended that two-thirds of the questions were relevant to Section 1.43 Thus, the parties agreed that at least one-third of the questions were not directly related to the enumerated qualifications, and that at least one-third of the questions were.
D. The Court of Chancery Proceedings
Saba filed its initial complaint with the Court of Chancery on June 4, 2019, more than three weeks after the Trusts’ first preliminary proxy statement was filed, and nearly five weeks after it first learned of the Trusts’ position that its nominees were ineligible. Saba asserted four counts, but sought injunctive relief only as to Counts III (breach of Bylaws) and IV (breach of fiduciary duty).44 On June 12, Saba amended its complaint to include allegations related to the BTZ definitive proxy statement, which was filed with the SEC the day after Saba‘s initial complaint.45 With respect to its claim for injunctive relief, Saba asked the court to order Appellants:
to (1) refrain from precluding, invalidating, or interfering with [Saba‘s] presentation of its four trustee nominees for election to the Board of BTZ and BQH at the 2019 annual meetings of shareholders, and (2) to allow any proxies or votes cast in favor of [Saba‘s] nominees at the meeting to be counted so that this Court may subsequently determine the outcome of the election and the proper constitution of the Board.46
The Court of Chancery heard argument on June 25, 2019 in response to Saba‘s request that the court “rule by June 28 in order to minimize the chance that brokers would
On June 27, 2019, the court, on a “highly expedited and pre-discovery record,”50 issued a Memorandum Opinion (the “Opinion“) granting mandatory injunctive relief based on Saba‘s breach of Bylaws claim.51 In reaching this conclusion, the Court of Chancery agreed with the Trusts that Section 7(e)(ii) was unambiguous. The court first described Saba‘s main theories as follows:
Although Saba‘s position appeared to evolve somewhat from briefing to argument, it broadly asserts that a request under Section 7(e)(ii) may only be made subsequent to one or more of the following: an identified change to the contents of a Nomination Notice that requires an update or supplement, an update pursuant to Section 7(e)(i), or an information request under Section 7(d)(i)(C)(6).52
The court dismissed Saba‘s reading of the Bylaws, rejecting Saba‘s Trigger Theory and holding that of the Bylaws provisions addressed by the parties, Section 7(e)(ii) is the exclusive method in the Bylaws for the Boards to request supplemental information relating to Nomination Notice.53 The court thus determined that “the Boards could request
However, the court said that the Trusts “went too far” with the Questionnaire. It explained that Section 7(e)(ii) establishes three limitations on what information the Trusts could request: “the desired information must be (a) for the purpose of determining whether Saba‘s nominees met Section 1‘s enumerated requirements, (b) ‘reasonably requested’ with that scope in mind, and (c) ‘necessary’ for the Boards’ determinations.”55 The court found “that the Questionnaire as a whole was not ‘reasonably requested’ or ‘necessary’ to determine whether Saba‘s nominees met Section 1‘s requirements,”56 and held that:
[b]y including in the Questionnaire a substantial number of questions unrelated to Section 1‘s director qualifications, and nonetheless enforcing the strict five-day deadline to invalidate Saba‘s nominations, Defendants overstepped their authority under Section 7(e)(ii) while demanding strict сompliance from Saba.57
The court also held that, because it was ruling for Saba on Count III, it need not reach any of the claims in Count IV alleging that the Trusts had acted inequitably. Nevertheless, the court stated that it would deny Saba relief “at this stage,”58 as Saba had not met its burden under the mandatory injunction standard. It concluded that Section 7 of the Bylaws had been adopted on a “clear day” before this proxy contest, and that there was
On July 2, 2019, the Court of Chancery entered a partial final judgment pursuant to Court of Chancery Rule 54(b) as to the breach of Bylaws claim (Count III), deeming that Saba‘s nominees have been validly nominated, enjoining the Trusts from deeming Saba‘s nominees to be ineligible for failure to comply with Section 7(e)(ii), and requiring that the votes for those nominees to be counted.61 Defendants filed a timely notice of appeal on July 10, 2019.
II. STANDARD OF REVIEW
This Court reviews a grant of injunctive relief for an abuse of discretion.62 Embedded legal conclusions, however, are reviewed de novo.63 “The construction or interpretation of a corporate certificate or by-law is a question of law subject to de novo
III. ANALYSIS
Appellants raise two issues on appeal. First, they claim that the Court of Chancery erred by issuing a mandatory injunction requiring the Trusts to count votes for Saba‘s nominees, contrary to the plain and unambiguous language of the Bylaws. Second, they
A. The Court Correctly Interpreted the Bylaws, But Erred in Granting Injunctive Relief In Light Of Saba‘s Failure to Timely Respond.
First, we address Appellants’ argument that the Court of Chancery erred in granting mandatory injunctive relief to Saba. The court held that Appellants could not require Saba to comply with the five business day deadline because the Questionnaire exceeded the Bylaws’ scope. Appellants contend that this ruling is contrary to the language of the clear and unambiguous Bylaws, which required Saba to respond to the information request within the deadline set forth in Section 7(e)(ii).
“To obtain a preliminary injunction, [Saba] must demonstrate: (1) a reasonable probability of success on the merits; (2) that [it] will suffer irreparable injury without an injunction; and (3) that [its] harm without an injunction outweighs the harm to the defendants that will result from the injunction.”68 The Court of Chancery viewed Saba‘s request as one seeking mandatory injunctive relief because requiring Appellants “to permit and count votes they otherwise would not have” would “upend, not preserve, [the] status quo.”69 There is a “higher mandatory injunction standard where, instead of seeking to preserve the status quo as interim relief, Petitioners, as a practical matter, seek the very
1. The Bylaws are Clear and Unambiguous.
The Bylaws “constitute part of a binding broader contract among the directors, officers and stockholders formed within the statutory framework of the
In the proceedings below, Appellants and Saba both argued that the relevant Bylaws unambiguously support their interpretation. Saba claimed that, under its Trigger Theory, Section 7(e)(ii) could be invoked only after one or more of the following occur: “an identified change to the contents of a Nomination Notice that requires an update or supplement, an update pursuant to Section 7(e)(i), or an information request under Section 7(d)(i)(C)(6).”77 Appellants, on the other hand, asserted “that Section 7(e)(ii) is the exclusive method for the Boards to request supplemental information relating to Nomination Notices in the Bylaws, and that such a request need not be preceded by any of the triggering events Saba identifies.”78
The Court of Chancery held that the pertinent language of the Bylaws was unambiguous and agreed with Appellants’ reading. It held that Section 7(e)(ii) is “the sole method identified by the parties for the Boards to request supрlemental information to a Nomination Notice.”79 It reasoned that Section 7(d) addresses only what is required in a Nomination Notice. Section 7(d)(i)(C)(6) reads:
To be in proper written form, a record shareholder‘s notice to the Secretary must set forth the following information: (i) as to each person whom the
shareholder of record proposes to nominate for election as a director (a “Proposed Nominee“) and any Proposed Nominee Associated Person . . . (C) . . . (6) information to establish to the satisfaction of the Board of Directors that the Proposed Nominee satisfies the director qualifications as set out in Section 1 of Article II . . . .80
Thus, the court concluded that Section 7(d)(i)(C)(6) “does not include an independent right under that section for the Board to request information.”81 We agree that Section 7(d)(i)(C)(6) does not address follow-up requests to a Nomination Notice.
The Court of Chancery also properly rejected Saba‘s Trigger Theory. The court held thаt “a request under Section 7(e)(ii) does not need to follow the record date or any other triggering event related to Section 7(e)(i).”82 It further noted that the conjunction “and” between the two subsections, which Saba references in support of its reading, “indicates only that the two subsections are not mutually exclusive, not that they must occur jointly.”83 We agree that a plain reading indicates that the occurrence of the events referred to in Section 7(e)(i) is not a prerequisite to the ability to make a request under Section 7(e)(ii). Thus, “the Boards could request supplemental information related to the [Nomination Notice] on April 22 under Section 7(e)(ii).”84 Because Section 7(e)(ii)
2. Saba Missed the Section 7(e)(ii) Deadline.
We part company with the Court of Chancery as to the remainder of its analysis of Section 7. We conclude that under the clear language of the Bylaws, Saba had an obligation to respond to the request before the expiration of the deadline. Instead, Saba did nothing and let the deadline pass.
As the Trusts concede, there are questions in the Questionnaire not tethered to Section 1. These include, as the Court of Chancery noted, questions about the
Although the Court of Chancery‘s decision hinged upon the Questionnaire‘s “overbreadth,” the record does not suggest that the Questionnaire‘s over-breadth precluded a timely response.86 Saba mentioned this excuse only when it stated that, “to the extent that the Board requested information not contained in Saba‘s Notice—that is, information unrelated to the issue of whether the nominees meet the director qualifications as set forth in the Bylaws—those requests in particular are unreasonable.”87 This was the only contention that resembled an over-breadth argument in Saba‘s May 1, 2019 letters, which were each three pages long. Similarly, in its six-page May 7, 2019 letter, Saba re-argued its Trigger Theory and raised over-breadth only by reiterating the same phrase.88 As the events lеading up to this action were unfolding, the gravamen of Saba‘s argument was that either the Questionnaire was not necessary because the questions were duplicative of what
A reasonable reading of the record is that Saba misread the Bylaws and did not think it had to respond to the follow-up request within five business days, and that the other justifications were after-the-fact excuses. In fact, it told the Court of Chancery that it “did not view the Questionnaire as falling under the five business day deadline imposed by Section 7(e)(ii).”89 We recognize that the April 22, 2019 transmittal email made no mention of a five-business-day deadline, nor did it specify that the request was being sent pursuant to Section 7(e)(ii). But, as the Court of Chancery noted:
Saba, a sophisticated entity that had already completed the Nomination [Notice] and understood the structure of the Bylaws, could only have been reasonably confused by the April 22 email if there was another method under Section 7 for the Boards to request additional information about the nominations. As addressed above, Section 7(e)(ii) is the only provision applicable to that purpose.90
Because Section 7(e)(ii) speaks clearly to the Board‘s ability to request supplemental information with regard to the Nomination Notice, Saba, as a sophisticated corporate entity, should have understood that, and its failure to respond does not justify disregarding the deadline.
Further, we observe that in the limited record before us, there is no evidence of any manipulative conduct on the part of the Trusts. Delaware law protects stockholders in instances where there is manipulative conduct or where the electoral machinery is applied inequitably.95 The Court of Chancery correctly observed that such an allegation “requires more than merely laying out the timeline of Defendants’ conduct and speculating about bad intent or purpose.”96 As noted above, Saba could have brought its claims weeks before
In sum, although we agree with the Court of Chancery‘s interpretation of the Bylaws, we disagree with the court‘s decision to excuse Saba‘s non-compliance with the deadline based upon the record before us. Accordingly, we hold that Saba‘s nominations are deemed ineligible under Section 7 due to their failure to timely respond to the Trusts’ request for supplemental information.
B. Saba‘s Claims Were Not Barred by Laches.
To the extent that it becomes relevant on remand, we address the Appellants’ second issue, and we affirm the Court of Chancery‘s determination that Saba was not guilty of laches. To raise the equitable defense of laches, the party raising the defense bears the burden of showing “first, knowledge by the claimant; second, unreasonable delay in bringing the claim; and third, resulting prejudice to the defendant.”98 “A trial court‘s application of equitable defenses presents a mixed question of law and fact.”99
Appellants argue that Saba unreasonably waited until June 4 to file this action, thirty-five days after they informed Saba that its director nominations were invalid. They further assert that they were prejudiced by this delay because voters may have voted or
However, the relevant facts are not in dispute and the Appellants fail to adequately explain why we should not defer to the court‘s findings. We agree with the Court of Chancery that, based on the prior year‘s July 30 meeting date, Saba had reason to believe BTZ‘s 2019 annual meeting date would be in late July.
Moreover, Appellants argued in the proceedings below that Saba‘s delay in filing the action would be harmful because of the costs associated with corrective disclosures and soliciting additional votes in a compressed time period.100 But, as the Court of Chancery noted, Appellants “set the BTZ meeting date after Saba filed its initial complaint, so costs related to its rapid approach are at least partly self-imposed.”101 BTZ‘s 2019 annual meeting date was set to take place on July 8, 2019, approximately three weeks earlier than the prior-yeаr annual meeting. The meeting was also ten days earlier than BQH‘s July 18, 2019 annual meeting, even though BQH‘s proxy materials were filed earlier than BTZ‘s. The Appellants admit it could have set BTZ‘s meeting date as far out as August 24.102 Thus, we concur with the court that the prejudice the Appellants allege is not entirely a
IV. CONCLUSION
Based on the foregoing, we affirm the Court of Chancery‘s interpretation of the Bylaws. However, we reverse the court‘s grant of Saba‘s request for mandatory injunctive relief. We affirm the court‘s holding that Saba‘s equitable claims are not barred by laches.
Thus, we AFFIRM in part, and REVERSE in part, and REMAND to the Court of Chancery for further proceedings.
Notes
App. to Opening Br. at A1173.And when you go through the questionnaire - - you know, there‘s no secret that this is a regulated entity. The consequences of this fund having a majority of interested directors is draconian. If we blow it, it‘s no longer a registered investment company. Its contracts could be voidable. The SEC could commence enforcement proceedings. There‘s a whole slew of bad consequences that could relate to the BlackRock funds if it turns out that there are people on the board who are interested.
