This interlocutory appeal is before us on our grant of review under 28 U.S.C. § 1292(b). 1 Specifically, the following controlling question of law was certified to this court:
whether, under the rationale of Williams v. City & County of Denver, *115199 F.3d 1009 (10th Cir.1996), [op. vacated,140 F.3d 855 (10th Cir.1997), and j. vacated & case remanded,1998 WL 380518 (10th Cir. June 26, 1998) ], a municipality can be held liable if the City’s actions can be characterized as arbitrary, or conscience-shocking, in a constitutional sense, even if there are no unconstitutional acts by an individual officer.
We answer this question in the negative. For purposes of this appeal the facts are not in dispute and are taken from the district court’s orders of August 27, 1997 (denying summary judgment for defendants) and August 17, 1998 (denying in part and granting in part defendants’ renewed motion for summary judgment and directing preparation of request for interlocutory appeal). These facts are summarized as follows.
In May of 1990, Constance Trigalet, Martha Annette Trigalet, and Steven Mun-son were killed when a GMC Safari Minivan struck their Ford Escort station wagon. The minivan had run a red light while being pursued by members of the Tulsa Police Department (hereinafter “TPD”). The sole reason for the police pursuit was for a stolen vehicle offense. There was no information that the suspects in the fleeing van had committed any violent felony or were known for violent behavior.
The minivan ran at least eight stop signs as one of the officers pursued it through residential areas of central Tulsa, passing a high school, a park and coming within blocks of the University of Tulsa. This portion of the pursuit involved speeds in excess of sixty to sixty-five miles per hour, with the fleeing van traveling through stop signs at major intersections at between forty and fifty miles per hour without slowing. The officers were aware of the likelihood of encountering traffic during the pursuit. No supervisor or watch commander was notified of the pursuit, nor was the pursuit supervised, although the TPD’s written vehicle pursuit policy then in force required that all pursuits be supervised and directed officers to terminate such pursuits when the hazards outweigh the benefits.
The training director for the TPD at the time of the accident testified that officers received the following training on high-speed pursuits: (1) twenty-four hours of hands-on training regarding the mechanical operation of a vehicle; and (2) some additional amount of training on the philosophy of pursuits, the specifics of which he did not recall. The manager of safety and equipment for the TPD at the time of the accident testified that it was appropriate to chase any traffic offender no matter what the offense. Officers are trained to use due caution and common sense in evaluating pursuits. Due to the discretionary nature of the pursuit policy, unless a supervisor discontinues a chase, the decision to terminate a chase is solely up to the officer. From 1985 through 1990, seven officers were disciplined for pursuit policy violations. All of the violations dealt with technical violations of the pursuit policy and not the decision to initiate, continue, or terminate a pursuit.
Plaintiffs brought this 42 U.S.C. § 1983 action against a number of defendants, including the City of Tulsa. Summary judgment for defendants was entered in March of 1993. Plaintiffs both appealed and filed a motion for reconsideration. This court dismissed the first appeal in August of 1993. The district court then granted the motion for reconsideration and vacated part of its earlier dismissal. Specifically, the district court reinstated the case against the three officers who had participated in the chase. The officers then appealed, claiming the district court erred in denying them qualified immunity. We determined that the officers were entitled to qualified immunity, holding that it was not clearly established in May of 1990 that a police officer could be liable under § 1983 for an injury caused by a third party.
See Trigalet v. Young,
*1152
Plaintiffs then moved to revise the court’s order dismissing the City, which was granted, thereby reinstating the action against the City. Tulsa then filed a motion for summary judgment, which was initially denied. However, all proceedings were stayed pending the Supreme Court’s decision in
County of Sacramento v. Lewis,
Plaintiffs had alleged that five elements of the TPD’s policies and practices violated the constitutional rights of the decedents:
1. TPD failed to maintain records regarding prior pursuits which illustrates its lack of concern for the potentially fatal results of these pursuits;
2. TPD failed to adopt a policy which places meaningful restraints on officers regarding the institution, continuation and termination of pursuits;
3. TPD failed to properly monitor and supervise pursuits, leaving all pursuit decisions to highly-emotional, adrenalin-charged officers instead of allowing objective supervisory officers to make decisions concerning high-speed pursuits;
4. TPD failed to adequately train its officers with respect to the philosophy of pursuits including the justification for initiating, continuing and terminating pursuits; and
5. TPD failed to hold officers accountable for improper decisions to initiate, continue and terminate a pursuit.
Following the Supreme Court’s decision in Lewis, in its August 1998 order, the district court granted summary judgment to Tulsa on plaintiffs’ indirect, or derivative, liability claim. The court denied Tulsa’s motion for summary judgment as to plaintiffs’ theory that Tulsa could be liable based on its own policies and practices, holding that under the original panel decision in Williams, the city might be directly liable if its actions could be characterized as arbitrary or conscience shocking. The court specifically concluded that even though this court had vacated the Williams opinion, “its distinction between direct and indirect municipal liability is still valid and persuasive,” and that there existed disputed issues of fact regarding whether the policies and practices of the Tulsa Police Department, by themselves, had violated plaintiffs’ rights. This appeal followed.
I.
Williams
was also a high-speed police case, resulting in the death of an innocent motorist caused when the speeding officer, who was not in actual pursuit of a suspect but was responding to a request for backup from a fellow officer, ran a red light and crashed into Ms. Williams’ son’s car. She sued the officer and the city under 42 U.S.C. § 1983, claiming the defendants had violated her son’s constitutional right to substantive due process. The claims against the city were based both on the city’s alleged deliberate indifference to the need to institute training, supervision and discipline procedures with respect to emer-gericy driving and on its own conduct in hiring and training the officer.
Williams,
*1153 On petitions for rehearing, we vacated the opinion in Williams and directed rehearing en banc to address the following questions:
1. What standard determines whether the conduct of the officer in this case violated the constitutional rights of the plaintiffs decedent?
2. Applying that standard, is the ultimate determination of whether the constitution was violated by the officer’s conduct to be made by the court or by a jury?
3. May the municipality be found liable for violating the constitutional rights of the plaintiffs decedent by its own conduct or policies in hiring and/or failing to train Officer Farr, even if the officer’s conduct did not violate the constitutional rights of decedent?
Williams v. City & County of Denver,
We later abated the appeal pending a decision by the Supreme Court in a factually similar case. We then vacated the district court’s judgment and remanded
Williams
to that court for further proceedings in light of
Lewis
and
Board of County Commissioners of Bryan County, Oklahoma v. Brown,
Lewis
involved a high-speed police pursuit in which the police officer chased a speeding motorcycle driver, resulting in the-' death of the motorcycle passenger when the bike tipped over and the officer struck and killed the passenger. The Supreme Court granted certiorari to consider “whether a police officer violates the Fourteenth Amendment’s guarantee of substantive due process by causing death through deliberate or reckless indifference to life in a high-speed automobile chase aimed at apprehending a suspected offender?”
Lewis,
Brown
involved an action by a plaintiff against a deputy sheriff who injured plaintiff when he used excessive force to remove her from the passenger side of a stopped vehicle. Plaintiff sued the county and the county sheriff, claiming liability based on the county sheriffs decision to hire the deputy. The claim against the sheriff was dismissed before trial, but the county stipulated that the sheriff was a policy maker regarding his department.
See Brown,
The Court reiterated its requirement that a plaintiff seeking to impose § 1983 liability on a municipality must identify a
*1154
policy or custom that caused plaintiffs injury.
See id.
at 403,
The plaintiff must also demonstrate that, through its deliberate conduct, the municipality was the “moving force” behind the injury alleged. That is, a plaintiff must show that the municipal action was taken with the requisite degree of culpability and must demonstrate a direct causal link between the municipal action and the deprivation of federal rights.
Id. (altered emphasis ours).
Key to the Court’s discussion of the circumstances supporting municipal liability is that there be a violation of plaintiffs constitutional rights.
II.
It is against the background of these cases that we consider whether a municipality can be held liable for the actions of its employees if those actions do not constitute a violation of a plaintiffs constitutional rights. We conclude, based on
Lewis
and
Brown,
as well as decisions from this and other circuits, as discussed below, that a municipality cannot be held liable under these circumstances.
See also City of Los Angeles v. Heller,
In
Webber v. Mefford,
We have recognized the need for a predicate constitutional violation in other contexts as well. In
Myers v. Oklahoma County Board of County Commissioners,
Support for our position is found in the decisions of our sister circuits as well.
See, e.g., Evans v. Avery,
Here, the threshold issue is whether the action causing the harm (police pursuit resulting in death of innocent bystander) states a constitutional violation at all. Because there was no evidence that the officer intended to harm the decedents,
Lewis
dictates that no constitutional harm has been committed. Therefore, plaintiffs cannot meet the first prong of the test set forth in
Collins v. City of Harker Heights, Tex.,
Thus, even if it could be said that Tulsa’s policies, training, and supervision were unconstitutional, the City cannot be held liable where, as here, the officers did not
*1156
commit a constitutional violation.
See S.P.,
In sum, we hold that absent a constitutional violation by the individual police officers whose conduct directly caused plaintiffs’ injuries, there can be no municipal liability imposed on the City of Tulsa on account of its policies, customs, and/or supervision with regard to the individual defendants.
Accordingly, the district court’s order denying the City of Tulsa’s motion for summary judgment on plaintiffs claim of direct liability is REVERSED, and we REMAND with directions to the district court to enter summary judgment for the City of Tulsa as to that claim. We express no opinion as to the grant of summary judgment to the City of Tulsa on plaintiffs’ claim of indirect liability based on the alleged unconstitutional actions of the police officers, as that determination is not part of this appeal.
Notes
. After examining the briefs and appellate record, this panel has determined unanimously to grant the parties’ request for a decision on the briefs without oral argument. See Fed. R.App. P. 34(f); 10th Cir. R. 34.1(G). The case is therefore ordered submitted without oral argument.
. As previously explained, the reckless or deliberate indifference standard has since changed to conduct that shocks the conscience.
See Lewis,
. In Myers, we were further concerned with the exception to the requirement for individual officer liability under circumstances where the jury could have returned its verdict for the officers based on qualified immunity. Under that circumstance, because the county was not entitled to qualified immunity, the suit could proceed against the court. Id. at 1317— 18.
. Other courts have disagreed with the
Fagan
decision.
See Evans,
