The most important issue on this petition to enforce an order of the National Labor Relations Board,
The employer, General Stencils, Inc., is a small company in Brooklyn, N. Y., engaged in the manufacture, sale and distribution of marking devices, etched name plates, and related products. The operation is supervised by Joseph Klug-man, who has been the company’s secretary and general manager for more than four decades and was 67 years old at the time of the hearing. Despite his impressive title, Mr. Klugman regularly donned overalls and spent his days in the plant, directing the production force, assisting in the work, and getting materials.
In 1961, District 50 of the United Mine Workers of America demanded recognition as representative of the production and maintenance workers on the basis of a claimed majority of authorization cards. Klugman refused to recognize the Union unless it was certified at a Board-conducted election. An election was held and the Union did not prevail. In 1966, another union sought recognition on the same basis, Klugman made the same response, and the same result ensued. District 50’s second organizing effort, which gave rise to this proceeding, commenced around June 8,1967.
Trial Examiner Mailer found that by June 23, when the Union made its initial demand for recognition and bargaining,
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it had authorization cards from 24 employees out of an appropriate unit of 32. While the employer challenges this determination in some respects, the finding is supported by substantial evidence, especially under the standard with respect to representations by card solicitors enunciated in
Gissel,
In determining whether the employer had violated § 8(a) (1), the Trial Examiner put aside general statements wherein Klugman, without threatening reprisals or promising benefits, indicated his poor opinion of unions. He also rejected the testimony of several employees either as incredible or as not showing violations. At the same time, he refused to credit much of Klugman’s testimony and found a number of § 8(a) (1) violations, hereafter discussed. Applying the Board’s
pre-Gissel
standards, see Cameo Lingerie, Inc.,
By the time the Board decided the case, the legal standard with respect to the issuance of bargaining orders had changed. It had now become “irrelevant that the employer may have a rational, albeit erroneous, doubt of majority or that he has a general distrust of cards.”
I.
The § 8(a) (1) Violations
We shall deal first with the employer’s challenges to the findings with respect to § 8(a) (l). 2 The evidence concerning unlawful interrogation came from three credited witnesses. Edna Gromalski testified that about the time she signed an authorization card, Klug-man asked her whether she was going to be “with the Union or with him,” adding that he was “not forcing the issue upon me, it is up to myself, whether I belong or whether I don’t belong.” She did not answer. He also asked whether she knew who had signed cards, and she untruthfully denied this. Duane Nicholas testified that Klugman asked whether he had signed a card, and he answered in the negative; apparently this was then the truth although he later signed one. Robert Kretschmer was asked who had attended a Union meeting on August 2, whether he had given a statement to the Board, and what it was.
The Board argues that the interrogation of Kretschmer as to what he told the Board agent falls within the ban of our decision in Henry I. Siegel Co. v. NLRB,
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On the other hand, we do not see how the interrogation of Gromalski or Nicholas came within the Board’s own criteria laid down in Blue Flash Express, Inc.,
The violations in the form of threats rested on the credited testimony of Kretschmer and two other employees, de Thomas and Lamattina. De Thomas was a smoker; although no-smoking signs furnished by the New York City Fire Department were posted in the plant, the company had done nothing to enforce this prohibition. Shortly before the Union meetings on June 22, Klugman told de Thomas that “[i]f the union got in, there would be a rule enforcing the no smoking rule.” A few days later Klugman told de Thomas that in the same eventuality he would institute a rule whereby anyone late three times in a month would be fired. Marie Lamattina testified that during the second week in July, more than a month after she had signed a card, Klugman told her that if the Union came in and “if it got slow, he could lay us off * * * that he could stop the radio playing and not let us play it * * * and if we came in late, he could fire us for it. And he couldn’t lend us any more money like he used to.” Kretschmer’s testimony went further. According to him, Klugman made sever *900 al statements that he could always close the business down if the Union came in, and that he would also cut out the coffee breaks, 5 cease maintaining the close relationships he previously had with the workers, discontinue making loans to employees, 6 and stop the employees from smoking. 7
The threat of closure was clearly a violation of § 8(a) (1) under the test laid down in
Gissel,
II.
The Bargaining Order
It is upon this basis that we reach the question whether the Board was justified in finding Klugman’s conduct to have been such “that the possibility of erasing the effects of past practices and of ensuring a fair election (or a fair rerun) by the use of traditional remedies, though present, is slight and that employee sentiment once expressed through cards would, on balance, be better protected by a bargaining order,” or whether the case fell into the “third category of minor or less extensive unfair labor practices, which, because of their minimal impact on the election machinery, will not sustain a bargaining order,”
Despite this observation we do not believe the Court thought that all the Board needed to do in deciding whether to dispense with the admittedly superior method of the election process to determine employee sentiment,
The Board’s decision here finds the employees were frightened by the interrogation concerning their union activities and the employer’s announced intention “to revoke many existing privileges if they elected the Union.”
This leaves us with the unlawful interrogation of Kretschmer about his statement to the Board agent, not shown to have been communicated to anyone, and the threats to a few employees to
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withdraw benefits of a relatively minor nature. We have found no case sustaining a bargaining order on the basis of such elements alone. Contrast NLRB v. L. B. Foster Co.,
It deserves emphasis that the Court noted in
Gissel,
We are impressed also by the employer’s citation of three post
-Gissel
cases in which the Board has declined to issue a bargaining order on the basis of unfair labor practices that would seem to cast more doubt on the likelihood of a fair election than those established here. In Stoutco, Inc.,
With this [the Gissel] standard in mind, we conclude that the Respondent’s misconduct was not sufficiently flagrant to prevent the conduct of a fair rerun election. The 8(a) (1) violations found here were neither so extensive in number nor pervasive in character that they warrant an 8(a) (5) finding or require a bargaining order to remedy their unlawful effect.
The Supreme Court’s emphasis, in fn. 32 of the
Gissel
opinion, on the respect to be given the Board’s decisions concerning the appropriate remedy surely was not meant totally to overrule in this area the famous statement in Universal Camera Corp. v. NLRB,
When we combine the invalidity of the Board’s conclusion with respect to the interrogation of Gromalski and Nicholas, the lack of evidence that the threat of plant closure was known to anyone but Kretchmer and the consequent failure even to mention this in the discussion of the propriety of a bargaining order, the figures cited in
Gissel
concerning the rather small effects of threats of loss of benefits on elections, and the lack of intelligible explanation of apparently differing results in other cases where the case for a bargaining order was at least as strong, we are convinced that the appropriate course is to vacate the bargaining order and remand this' portion of the case to the Board for further findings and conclusions. In this connection the Board may find it desirable to take additional evidence with respect to employee turnover, see NLRB v. American Cable Systems, Inc.,
supra,
We therefore:
1) Modify paragraph 1(a) of the Board’s order to read:
“(a) Interrogating employees about any statements given to agents of the National Labor Relations Board” and grant enforcement as so modified;
2) Grant enforcement as to paragraphs 1(b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), (i), and 2(c);
3) Vacate paragraphs 1(h) and 2(a) and remand the question of issuance of a bargaining order for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion; and
4) Order that the notice referred to in paragraph 2(b) be modified in a manner consistent with the above directions.
No costs.
Notes
. (a) Interrogating employees concerning their membership and/or interest in International Union of District 50, United Mine Workers of America, or any other labor organization of its employees, in a manner constituting interference, restraint, or coercion within the meaning of Section 8(a) (1) of the Act, or about any statements given to agents of the National Labor Relations Board.
(b) Threatening to enforce a no-smoking rule, if a majority of the employees selects International Union of District 50, United Mine Workers of America, or any other labor organization of its employees, to represent them.
(c) Threatening to impose a tardiness rule, and threatening employees with discharge through the implementation of this rule, if a majority of the employees selects International Union of District 50, United Mine Workers of America, or any other labor organization of its employees, to represent them. *898 (d) Threatening to refuse to make loans to its employees, if a majority of the employees selects International Union of District 50, United Mine Workers of America, or any other labor organization of its employees, to represent them.
(e) Threatening to cease providing its employees with coffee breaks (or free coffee breaks), if a majority of the employees selects International Union of District 50, United Mine Workers of America, or any other labor organization of its employees, to represent them.
(f) Threatening to close the plant, if a majority of the employees selects International Union of District 50, United Mine Workers of America, or any other labor organization of its employees, to represent them.
(g) Threatening employees with layoffs if work is scarce, contrary to established practice of avoiding layoffs, if a majority of the employees selects International Union of District 50, United Mine Workers of America, or any other labor organization of its employees, to represent them.
. In doing this we shall include in the text only the employee testimony on which the Examiner relied and shall not state Klug-man’s version although it is not clear that the Examiner wholly rejected this. We likewise omit any discussion of the many inconsistencies within the testimony of the credited witnesses and the discrepancies between such testimony and statements given the Board when the events must have been fresher in their minds.
. We express no opinion on whether this would be true if the employer could demonstrate that he was only and in good faith seeking information with which to prepare for a hearing on alleged unfair labor practices. This contention was made in the two Sixth Circuit cases noted above, but in both instances the court found that despite the legitimate employer
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interest in trial preparation, the conduct had exceeded the necessities of the situation. NLRB v. Winn-Dixi Stores,
supra,
. In seeking to bring the cases within Blue Flash, the Board argues that, in view of Klugman’s later refusal to inspect the Union cards and his demand for an election, there was “no possible legitimate excuse” for his asking the employees’ views about the Union. Apart from other considerations, this implies an ability on Klugman’s part to foresee the Board’s abandonment of the good-faith doubt defense which even the experienced Trial Examiner did not possess.
. Kretschmer was uncertain whether the threat was to cut out the breaks altogether or merely to stop providing free coffee and the free cake that had been furnished during the afternoon break.
. The Examiner found that “[Respondent makes loans to employees from time to time, pays their doctor’s [sic] bills when they are sick, and keeps them on the payroll, instead of laying them off, when business is slow.”
. Klugman denied making any of these threats except that he had told Kretsch-mer that “if the union got in, it sets up a wall and there would be no more close relationships with employees.”
. The cease and desist order seems to have been carefully framed to prohibit only
threatening
the employees that the employer would take action of the sort there described if they should choose to select Local 50. It does not say that the employer could not take such action once it had recognized District 50 as the collective bargaining agent. While we express no opinion whether this would be an unfair labor practice on the facts of this case, at least one court has held that an employer which, even before recognizing the union, tightened up its policy with respect to making personal loans and issued a written set of working rules (previously in effect but not enforced) did not commit an unfair labor practice in so doing. NLRB v. Cosco Products Co.,
. See Peck, The Atrophied Rule-Making Powers of the National Labor Relations Board, 70 Yale L.J. 729 (1961), and 1 Davis, Administrative Law Treatise § 6.13 at 147-50 (1965 pocket part).
. Discretionary Justice, A Preliminary Inquiry 59-60 (1969).
. The only employee who testified to such a threat was Kretschmer. The threat would scarcely have frightened him since he intended to leave soon for another job, and neither he nor any of the eighteen other employees called by the General Counsel testified that he had passed the word along. Counsel for the Board rely on a statement in Bausch & Lomb Optical Co. v. NLRB,
“ * * * Any expressions of company attitudes, even to small groups of indi-dividuals, were likely to be rapidly disseminated around a plant during the struggle of organization.”
This was the second clause of a sentence dealing with § 8(a) (1) violations which began
“These incidents cannot be dismissed as de minimis, as the company contends, since any expressions” etc.
Here the issue of dissemination was raised, at least tangentially, by the employer’s impressive claim that the idea that Klugman would have selected an employee known to be leaving as the object of threats of plant closure was incredible. All the Examiner could say in answer was that “It is not inconceivable that Klugman would have made those statements to Kretschmer in the hope that Kretschmer would disseminate these statements among the other employees.”
. While Stoutco might be distinguished on the ground that the card-count majority was achieved only after the union’s demand for recognition and that this was one of the grounds on which the Trial Examiner dismissed the § 8(a) (5) charge, the union achieved its majority soon after the demand, and the Board usually considers the demand to be a continuing one. In any event it would be sheer speculation to guess that this was the reason for the decision. Instead of explaining why “employee sentiment once expressed through cards” would not be better protected by a bargaining order than by the rerun election which it ordered, the Board proffered only the following :
In all the circumstances of this case, we find that the Respondent’s conduct tended to inhibit a free choice by the employees and necessitates the setting aside of the election.
*904 However, contrary to the contention of both the Charging Party and General Counsel, we do not believe that, in all the circumstances of this case, the unfair labor practices were of such a nature as to warrant imposition of a bargaining order.
180 NLRB No. 11 at 3 (mimeographed decision). Such a statement tells nothing and is as unfair to the charging union and the General Counsel as the “litany” is to the employer in a close case.
. See the well-known statement by Judge Frank, surely no foe of the administrative agencies, dissenting in Old Colony Bondholders v. New York, N.H. & H.R.R.,
