MEMORANDUM DECISION AND ORDER GRANTING DEFENDANT CREATIVE CONTROLS, INC.’S MOTION TO DISMISS AND/OR TRANSFER PLAINTIFF’S SUPPLEMENTAL AND SECOND AMENDED COMPLAINT UNDER RULES 12(b)(2), (3) AND (6)
INTRODUCTION
Kindig-It Design, Inc. (“Kindig”) brings this action against defendants Creative Controls, Inc. (“Creative Controls”), Speedway Motors, Inc., and Rutter’s Rod Shop, Inc., claiming, among other things, that Creative Controls has infringed on Kindig’s copyrights and patents. Creative Controls moves to dismiss on the basis that the court lacks personal jurisdiction over it. Alternatively, Creative Controls moves to transfer the case to Michigan and to dismiss various causes of action under Rule 12(b)(6) for failing to state a claim. The court held a hearing on the motion on September 24, 2015. Due to inadequacies in the briefing, the court requested additional memoranda from both parties, which were filed on October 12, 2015.
Kindig has met its burden of showing that Creative Controls has sufficient contacts with Utah to allow the court to exercise personal jurisdiction over it on the non-patent claims. It has not, however, met its burden for the patent claims. And Kindig has only sufficiently stated a claim under Rule 12(b)(6) for some, but not all, of its claims. Accordingly, the court GRANTS IN PART AND DENIES IN PART Creative Controls’ motion to dismiss. (Docket 31).
FACTUAL BACKGROUND
In support of its motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction, Creative Controls offers an affidavit by its president detailing its lack of contacts with Utah. Creative Controls is a Michigan corporation. It has never maintained a regular or established place of business in Utah. It is not registered to do business in Utah, and has no employees in Utah. Creative Controls does not own any property in Utah. It also does not have any bank accounts in Utah. Kindig offers no evidence to contradict these assertions.
In arguing that this court has jurisdiction, Kindig points to four distinct “contacts” that Creative Controls allegedly has to Utah. First, Creative Controls maintained a website on which customers, including any from Utah, could place orders. Second, Creative Controls donated a custom parking brake for use on a car that
Creative Controls’ first alleged contact with Utah is the website it maintains. This website advertises Creative Controls’ products and, at one time, allowed customers to place orders and make purchases. But there has been no evidence presented that the website specifically targets Utah customers. In fact, Creative Controls’ president swears that it “does not systematically or otherwise target persons or firms as potential customers in the state of Utah for the sale of any products.” Kindig offers no evidence to contradict this testimony.
Creative Controls’ second alleged contact with Utah occurred approximately five years ago when Creative Controls donated to Kindig a custom parking brake for a car that Kindig was customizing. Creative Controls sent the brake to Kindig’s place of business in Utah. In return, Kindig sent Creative Controls a disk containing photographs of the finished car. Accompanying the disk was a letter from Kindig indicating that Creative Controls could use the photographs for promotional purposes. The photographs on the disk are among the copyrighted photographs that Kindig alleges Creative Controls illegally copied.
Creative Controls’ final alleged contact with Utah is a single sale made to a Utah customer. The customer, a Utah resident, placed an order on Creative Controls’ website. The order was delivered to the customer’s residence in Utah. However, the customer was a relative of a Kindig employee and Kindig admits that the order was made at its request in preparation for this litigation. At oral argument, the parties agreed that it would be improper to subject Creative Controls to personal jurisdiction on the basis of this contact.
DISCUSSION
Creative Controls argues that this court lacks personal jurisdiction over it. Whether a court may exercise personal jurisdiction over a defendant depends on the defendant’s contacts with the forum state. Those contacts may give rise to either general or specific personal jurisdiction. A party is subject to general personal jurisdiction only when its “affiliations with the [forum] State are so ‘continuous and systematic’ as to render them essentially at home in the forum State.” Daimler AG v. Bauman, — U.S. —,
Specific personal jurisdiction exists only when the plaintiffs claims arise out of the defendant’s contacts with the forum. Thus, the court must consider each of Kin-dig’s claims separately to determine whether they arise from any of Creative Controls’ contacts with Utah. And because several of Kindig’s claims are factually unrelated, the specific contacts alleged by Kindig may relate to some of Kindig’s claims, but not to others. The patent infringement claims, for example, are factually unrelated to the copyright infringement claims. This means that the court may have specific personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls for some of the Kindig’s claims, but not for others.
When a court has specific personal jurisdiction over only some of a plaintiffs claims, the doctrine of pendent
I. The Court May Exercise Specific Personal Jurisdiction Over Creative Controls for Only Some of Kindig’s Claims
To determine whether the court has personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls, the court must first determine whether to apply Tenth Circuit or Federal Circuit law. Both circuits agree that where, as in Utah, “the state long arm statute supports 'personal jurisdiction to the full extent constitutionally permitted, due process principles govern the inquiry.” Shrader v. Biddinger,
On the patent-related claims, Federal Circuit law governs the due process analysis for personal jurisdiction purposes. 3D Sys.,
Under both Federal Circuit and Tenth Circuit law, the plaintiff bears the initial burden of establishing personal jurisdiction. See Shrader,
A. The court lacks specific personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls on the patent-related claims.
Kindig argues that the court has personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls for the patent-related claims
Under Federal Circuit law, when specific personal jurisdiction has been contested, the inquiry is “whether: (1) the defendant purposefully directed its activities at residents of the forum, (2) the claim arises out of or relates to those activities, and (3) assertion of personal jurisdiction is reasonable and fair.” Avocent Huntsville Corp. v. Aten Int’l Co.,
As evidence of Creative Controls’ purposefully directed activities related to the patent claims, Kindig points to Creative Controls’ website.
1) The court finds- the Zippo sliding scale to be unpersuasive.
The parties disagree on how Creative Controls’ website should be classified for purposes of the Zippo sliding scale test. However, taking the allegations in the Supplemental and Second Amended Com
The lack of any specific instances of Creative Controls’ physical or digital contacts with Utah demonstrates why the Zippo sliding scale should not replace traditional personal jurisdiction analysis. Specifically, it highlights Zippo’s primary defect. The Zippo test effectively removes geographical limitations on personal jurisdiction over entities that have interactive websites. And because the number of entities that have interactive websites continues to grow exponentially, application of the Zippo framework would essentially eliminate the traditional geographic limitations on personal jurisdiction.
Under Kindig’s view, every court in every state could exercise personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls simply because it maintains an interactive website. Were the court to adopt such an approach, “then the defense of personal jurisdiction, in the sense that a State has geographically limited judicial power, would no longer exist.” ALS Scan, Inc. v. Dig. Serv. Consultants, Inc.,
The weakness of the Zippo approach becomes ever more apparent in today’s digital age. The ability to create and maintain an interactive website is no longer the sole domain of technologically sophisticated corporations. Virtually all websites, even those created with only minimal expense, are now interactive in nature. It is an extraordinarily rare website that does not allow users to do at least some of the following: place orders, share content, “like” content, “retweet,” submit feedback, contact representatives, send messages, “follow,” receive notifications, subscribe to content, or post comments. And those are only interactions immediately visible to the user. In fact, most websites also interact with the user “behind the scenes” through
Furthermore, maintaining an interactive website is no longer the sole purview of corporations. In fact, with the invention of social media, many individuals, to say nothing" of organizations, maintain an interactive website. In a matter of minutes, an individual can create a Facebook account and upload content to his or her own
Given the exponential growth in the number of interactive websites, the Zippo approach — which would remove personal jurisdiction’s geographical limitations based on the mere existence of those those websites — is particularly troubling. And the problem would grow more acute every year as more individuals and businesses create interactive websites.
This court is not alone in its criticism of the Zippo sliding scale as a replacement for traditional personal jurisdiction analysis. The Second Circuit has cautioned that the Zippo sliding scale “does not amount to a separate framework for analyzing internet-based jurisdiction.” Best Van Lines, Inc. v. Walker,
, The traditional tests are readily adaptable to the digital age, just as they were to technological advances like the telegraph, radio, television, and telephone. See Gorman v. Ameritrade Holding Corp.,
In summary, this court finds Zippo to be unpersuasive. The traditional tests for personal jurisdiction are readily applicable to internet-based conduct and' are therefore controlling under Federal Circuit law.
2) Creative Controls has not purposefully availed itself of the Utah forum via its website.
Under traditional personal jurisdiction analysis, the court must consider whether Creative Controls’ website constitutes a purposeful availment of the Utah forum. By its very nature, the internet allows individuals and businesses to create a presence that is visible throughout the United States and the world. Even so, “one cannot purposefully avail oneself of ‘some forum someplace.’ ” Revell v. Lidov,
Specific personal jurisdiction may be based only on the defendant’s contacts that give rise or relate to the claims at issue. Thus, the court focuses its inquiry on whether any contacts Creative Controls may have had with Utah via its website give rise or relate to a claim for patent infringement. A patent infringement claim arises when the alleged infringer “without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention.” 35 U.S.C. § 271(a) (2012). In this case, other than the single product sold at Kindig’s request, there is no evidence that Creative Controls made or sold any allegedly infringing products in Utah.
For purposes of section 271, the Federal Circuit defines the term “offer to sell ... according to its ordinary meaning in contract law, as revealed by traditional sources of authority.” Rotec Indus., Inc. v. Mitsubishi Corp.,
[T]here are no allegations that any South Carolina resident accessed Centri-cut’s web page. Even assuming that the web site constitutes an offer to sell under the patent laws, Plaintiff makes no .factual demonstration that Centricut’s Internet “offers to sell” actually were made in South Carolina, by virtue of a consumer visiting the site. Without some other substantial act, the web page is not an offer to sell allegedly infringing products in South Carolina under 35 U.S.C. § 271(a).
ESAB Grp., Inc. v. Centricut, LLC,
The Federal Circuit has indicated that one important factor for ’evaluating purposeful availmént in the internet context is “whether any [forum] residents have ever actually used [the defendant’s] website to transact business.” Trintec Indus., Inc. v. Pedre Promotional Prods., Inc.,
In this case, to establish that Creative Controls purposefully availed itself of the Utah forum, Kindig must show that Creative. Controls either “intentionally targeted Utah users or that Utah users actually interacted with [the] website,” iAccess, Inc. v. WEBcard Techs., Inc.,
Kindig alleges that Creative Controls’ website is “highly interactive” and that it encourages website viewers to purchase Kindig’s products. Kindig also makes factual allegations suggesting that Creative Controls’ website was, prior to the filing of this litigation, capable of facilitating commercial transactiqns. Critically, however, Kindig has failed to plead any facts that would suggest that Creative Controls ei
Likewise, Kindig has failed to plead any facts showing that any Utah resident (other than in connection with Kindig’s orchestrated sale) has ever visited Creative Controls’ website. Thus, even assuming that the website constitutes an offer to sell under Federal Circuit law, there is no evidence that Creative Controls has ever made an offer to sell an allegedly infringing product to a Utah resident via its website. Without such evidence, the court cannot find that Creative Controls’ website creates sufficient minimum contacts with Utah to constitute purposeful availment of the Utah forum. Accordingly, the court lacks specific personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls on all patent-related claims.
B. The court has personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls on all the non-patent claims related to the allegedly copied photographs.
Kindig asserts three bases for this court’s specific personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls on the non-patent claims.
Under Tenth Gircuit law, to satisfy the requirements of specific personal jurisdiction, the plaintiff must show “that (1) the defendant has purposefully availed itself of the privilege of conducting activities or consummating a transaction in the forum state; and (2) the litigation results from alleged injuries that arise out of or relate to those activities.” Emp’rs Mut. Cas.,
1) Creative Controls’ website does not constitute purposeful availment of the Utah forum.
Kindig argues that the “interactive” nature of Creative Controls’ website provides this court with personal jurisdiction over the non-patent-related claims. In support of its arguments, it again relies on the Zippo “sliding scale” that has informed the analysis in some previous Tenth Circuit cases. See, e.g., Soma Med. Int’l v. Standard Chartered Bank,
Accordingly, and for the same reasons as those articulated in the previous section, the court again finds Zippo to be unpersuasive. The court believes this conclusion is justified under Tenth Circuit law. Here again, the traditional test of minimum contacts and purposeful availment controls. Creative Controls has no more purposefully availed itself of the Utah forum by its website under Tenth Circuit law than under Federal Circuit law. Accordingly, the court cannot exercise personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls based solely on its website.
2) The illegal copying of photographs on Kindig’s Utah website gives rise to personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls on all claims related to the alleged copying.
Kindig alleges that Creative Controls operates websites that contain copyrighted photographs illegally copied from Kindig’s website. Kindig alleges that Creative Controls copied the photographs from Kindig’s website and used them to illegally create infringing websites and other derivative works. Kindig argues that Creative Controls purposefully availed itself of the Utah forum by illegally copying the materials from Kindig’s website in Utah.
This allegation is in stark contrast to the Zippo-based arguments Kindig previously advanced. Namely, this is an allegation that there was an actual, not merely a possible, contact with the forum. The court agrees that, taking this allegation as true, Creative Controls’ actions constitute a purposeful availment of the Utah forum. Creative Controls allegedly copied photographs from a Utah company’s website and used the copied materials to creative derivative works. Given that contact, it is both foreseeable and reasonable that Creative Controls would be haled into a Utah court.
This court may exercise specific personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls for all claims arising out of that contact so long as doing so does not offend traditional notions of fair play and substantial justice. Accordingly, the court must determine which, if any, of Kindig’s claims arise out of Creative Controls’ contact with the Utah forum.
Kindig has fourteen causes of action against Creative Controls. Claims 1, 2, 7, 12, 13, and 14 are the patent-related claims. These claims are wholly unrelated to Creative Controls’ alleged copying of Kindig’s website. Claim 11 is for business disparagement based on statements made at a trade conference in Las Vegas, Nevada. That claim has is also unrelated to the allegedly copied photographs or to Utah. However, claims 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 (collectively, the “Copyright-Related Claims”) are for conversion, copyright infringement, Lanham act violations, fraud, deceptive trade practices and unjust enrichment. These Copyright-Related Claims all arise from Creative Controls’ alleged copying of the photographs from Kindig’s Utah website. Accordingly, the court concludes that they do arise out of the Creative Control’s contact with Utah.
Having determined that the Copyright-Related Claims arise from Creative Control’s contact with Utah, the court must still determine whether the exercise of personal jurisdiction over them is con
Creative Controls argues that “[i]t would be a significant burden on Creative Controls to have to defend the lawsuit in Utah while Creative Controls is located in Michigan.” It does not, however, explain why this would the case. In the modern world of air transportation and digital communication, the court has no difficulty in finding that litigating in Utah 'will not create so substantial a burden to Creative Controls as' to violate Due Process. Additionally, Utah has a strong interest in the resolution of this' dispute. Utah has an interest in ensuring' that the copyrights owned by its citizens are not illegally infringed. Similarly, Utah has an interest in the adjudication of the unfair trade practices claims. For all of these reasons, the exercise of specific personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls is consistent with Due Process and does not violate notions of fair play and substantial justice.
C. The court cannot exercise pendént personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls for the claims, over which no specific personal jurisdiction exists;
. Having determined that the court has personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls for' the Copyright-Related Claims, the final- step in the jurisdictional analysis is to consider whether the court can exercise pendent personal jurisdiction over the remaining claims. The Tenth Circuit has explained that “[p]endent personal jurisdiction ... exists when a court possesses personal jurisdiction over a defendant, for one claim, lacks an independent basis for personal jurisdiction over the defendant for another claim ... and then, because it póssesses personal jurisdiction over the first claim, asserts personal jurisdiction over the second claim.” Botefuhr,
In this case, there is no pendent personal jurisdiction. The patent claims and the claim for.business disparagement are factually unrelated to the Copyright-Related Claims. Indeed, Kindig has not even suggested that Creative Controls’ copying of the photographs relates in any way to the patent claims or the claim for business disparagement. Accordingly, the court finds that there is' no pendent personal jurisdiction in this case. Even were that doctrine to potentially apply, the court would exercise its discretion and not retain the claims because they factually unrelated to the claims over which the court has specific personal jurisdiction.
II. Venue is Proper
Creative Controls briefly argues that, “for the same reasons that personal jurisdiction against Creative Controls is lacking, venue is also improper.” It argues that it would be inconvenient for it, a Michigan company, to litigate the patent-related Claims in Utah.
As explained above, however, the court dismisses the patent-related claims but
III. Kindig Has Stated a Claim Under Rule 12 For All Copyright-Related Claims Except for the Fraud Claim
Creative Controls’ final argument is that Kindig’s claims must be dismissed under Rule 12(b)(6) for failure to state claims upon which relief can be granted. Having determined that the court’s jurisdiction is limited to the Copyright-Related Claims, the court will only consider the Rule 12 motion to dismiss as it relates to those claims.
Under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(6), a court may dismiss a complaint if it “fail[s] to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.” Fed. R., Civ. P. 12(b)(6). When considering a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim, a court “accept[s] all well-pleaded facts as. true and view[s] them in the light most favorable to the plaintiff.” Jordan-Arapahoe, LLP v. Bd. of Cty. Comm’rs,
A. Kindig has sufficiently plead its claims for copyright infringement.
Creative Controls argues that Kindig has failed to sufficiently plead its copyright infringement claims (claims 3 and 4). It argues that the claims are deficient, in three ways. First, it argues that the claims do not sufficiently identify the copyrighted materials that Creative Controls has allegedly infringed. Second, it argues that the claims do not sufficiently identify which of Creative Controls’ works infringe upon the copyrights. Third, Creative Controls asserts that some of the copyrights may be invalid on their face. Each of these arguments will be considered in turn.
1) Kindig’s Complaint sufficiently identifies the copyrighted materials in question.
Creative Controls argues that Kindig’s Complaint does not adequately identify the copyrighted materials owned by Kindig. Specifically, it states that “[t]he Federal Rules of Civil Procedures [sic] provide a sample form - of complaint for copyright infringement, and the form anticipates that the allegedly infringing work would be not only identified in the complaint but attached as an exhibit.” Creative Controls, however, has pointed to no Tenth Circuit authority requiring that the copy
Kindig’s Complaint does provide a description of the copyrighted work in paragraphs 16 through 25. The description includes the copyright registration information as well as the date of first publication. Additionally, Kindig has attached the copyright registrations to the complaint. While the court agrees that attaching the actual copyrighted works to the complaint may have been helpful, Kindig’s failure to do so does not merit dismissal. Kindig has provided enough information in the Complaint to meet Rule 8’s requirement of “a short and plain statement of the claim showing that the pleader is entitled to relief’ and to provide Creative Controls with sufficient notice of the claims. Fed. R. Civ. P. 8(a)(2). Kindig is not required, at the pleading stage of the proceedings, to attach all relevant documents to the Complaint. Furthermore, the court notes that the discovery process will easily provide Creative Controls with access to the specific copyrighted materials.
2) Kindig has sufficiently pled Creative Controls’ alleged infringement.
Creative Controls’ next argument is that “Kindig has not identified what works on Creative Controls’ website and/or the eBay pages are allegedly infringing Kindig’s works.” Here again, Creative Controls has provided no Tenth Circuit authority for its assertion that the Complaint must precisely identify every infringing material to survive a motion to dismiss. Rather, it cites cases explaining that complaints must “give defendants fair notice of the claims against them and the grounds supporting the claims.” Cincinnati Life Ins. Co. v. Beyrer,
The Complaint alleges that Creative Controls’ website “contains photographs of customized automobiles which [sic] are nearly identical to [the copyrighted] photographs of customized automobiles found on the Kindig website.” This allegation clearly provides notice for the basis of the copyright infringement claims — namely that Creative Controls website contains copies of copyrighted photographs of Kindig’s customized cars. This statement easily meets Rule 8’s requirements.
3) The court cannot conclude that the copyrights are invalid.
Creative Controls’ final argument is that “at least some of the registrations may be invalid on their face.” It argues that “this is difficult if not impossible for Creative Controls to determine since Kindig has not identified what the works actually are.” As was explained above, Kindig has sufficiently identified the copyrighted works to survive a motion to dismiss. Creative Controls has not, at this stage, presented the court with sufficient argument to allow the court to conclude that any of the copyrights are invalid. If, however, through the discovery process, Creative Controls concludes that specific copyrights are invalid, it may bring a motion for summary judgment.
B. Kindig has sufficiently pled its claims for false advertising and deceptive trade practices.
Creative Controls argues that Kindig’s false advertising claim and deceptive trade practices claim (claims 5 and 6) should be dismissed because the photographs in question are not materially misleading. Specifically, it argues that “it is unlikely that any differences between door handles in the small photographs of ears and the actual Creative Controls’ handles would influence any purchasing decision.”
Kindig need not show that its claims are “likely” in order to survive a motion to dismiss. Rather, it need only show that they are plausible. See Twombly,
C. At this stage of the proceeding, the court cannot dismiss Kindig’s unjust enrichment or conversion claims as preempted.
Creative Controls argues that Kindig’s unjust enrichment and conversion claims (claims 8 and-10) are preempted by federal copyright law. In so doing, it relies on the Tenth Circuit case of Ehat v. Tanner.
But Creative Controls has also argued that some of the copyrights may be invalid and discovery is required on this issue. Because both the unjust enrichment and conversion claims are based on all the photographs, including some that may not be validly copyrighted, the court cannot determine which claims, if any, are preempted. Accordingly, the court declines to rule on the preemption issues at this stage of the proceedings.
D. Kindig has failed to state a claim for fraud
Kindig’s claim for fraud (claim 9) is based on Creative Controls’ alleged use of Kindig’s work on Creative Controls’ website. Kindig alleges that “Creative Controls’ use of the false and/or misleading information to promote and sell the Silent Hand Smooth Door Handle product was deliberate and with the intent to deceive and mislead the public.” But Kindig alleges no facts suggesting that Creative Controls defrauded Kindig. Accordingly, Kindig’s claim appears to be that Creative Controls committed fraud on the public at large. Kindig has not, however, cited any case or statute suggesting that a private company may bring a “fraud on the public” claim when that company was not itself defrauded. Indeed, the case upon which Kindig relies makes clear that, under Utah law, the party bringing the claim for fraud must have acted in reliance on the fraud. Fidelity Nat’l Title Ins. Co. v. Worthington,
CONCLUSION
Kindig has not satisfied its burden to show that this court has personal jurisdiction over Creative Controls for all claims.
Notes
. The patent-related claims in this case are claims 1, 2, 7, 12, 13 and 14. Claims 1, 2, 12, 13 and 14 are claims for patent infringement or inducement of infringement. While claim seven is for unfair competition under the Utah’s Unfair Competition Act, it is still patent-related because, as argued in Kindig’s reply, the alleged "material .diminution in value of intellection property” is based on the patent claims.
. This is the only- contact that Creative Controls allegedly has with Utah .that is related to the patent claims. Creative Controls' alleged copying of photographs from Kindig’s website is unrelated to the patent claims, as is Creative Controls’ alleged donation the parking brake. Furthermore, as explained below, the parties agree that the single sale made to a Utah resident should be ignored for the jurisdictional analysis.
. The stipulation of the parties at oral argument that the sale made at Kindig’s request cannot be the basis for personal jurisdiction is consistent with the rulings of many courts that have considered whether a plaintiff may manufacture jurisdiction by orchestrating a sale in a particular forum. See, e.g., Mor-Dall Enters., Inc. v. Dark Horse Distillery, LLC,
. It is worth noting that many of these now-ubiquitous interactive features did not exist in 1997 when Zippo was decided.
. While it is true that individuals or organizations do not actually own or maintain the technological infrastructure of their Facebook pages, they do create and maintain most of the content. Accordingly, it would appear that the Zippo test would treat the individual or organization that created the page as maintaining a highly interactive website.
.The court recognizes that one possible way to distinguish the Facebook activities from the Zippo test is that Zippo referred to commercial activity and most individual social media pages are not. maintained for commercial purposes. It is unclear, however, why this distinction should make any difference for purposes of personal jurisdiction. Nothing requires that the "purposeful availment of the forum” be for commercial purposes. Indeed, that "purposeful availment” is often for personal, recreational, or other non-commercial purposes.
. The parties agree that the specific product sold at Kindig’s request cannot be the basis for personal jurisdiction.
. As explained above, Tenth Circuit law governs the question of this court's personal jurisdiction for claims unrelated to the patents.
. The court is puzzled by how Creative Controls can claim to be unable to determine
