The central question on this appeal is whether a state government lawyer may refuse, on the basis of the attorney-client privilege, to disclose communications with a state officeholder when faced with a grand jury subpoena. The district court found that in the context of a federal criminal investigation, no such government attorney-client privilege existed. We agree with this determination, and therefore affirm.
I
Roger Bickel was employed by the state of Illinois as Chief Legal Counsel to the Secretary of State’s office during the first four years of former Secretary (now Governor) George Ryan’s administration. Bickel provided legal counsel and advice to Ryan and other Secretary of State officials as they carried out their public duties. Bickel has also served as a personal lawyer to Ryan, his wife, and Ryan’s campaign committee, Citizens for Ryan, since at least 1989.
For the past three years, federal prosecutors have been investigating a “licenses for bribes” scandal in the Illinois Secretary of State’s office, dubbed “Operation Safe Road.” The alleged (and in some instances admitted) corruption extends to the improper issuance of commercial drivers’ licenses, specialty license plates, leases, and other contracts; the improper use of campaign funds for the personal benefit of Secretary of State employees; and obstruction of justice in connection with internal office investigations. Because of his role in advising then-Secretary Ryan, federal prosecutors sought to discuss these matters with Bickel. Initially, they tried scheduling a voluntary interview with him for this purpose, but Ryan objected to the meeting and advised both Bickel and the federal prosecutors that he had not waived and would not waive the attorney-client privilege with respect to any of his prior conversations with Bickel.
After several avenues for resolving the problem proved unsuccessful, the federal prosecutors served a subpoena from the grand jury that commanded Bickel to ap *291 pear and testify before that body about all conversations he had with Ryan in his official capacity as General Counsel. They also obtained a motion to compel Bickel to testify about those matters. Finally, the United States secured a letter from Illinois’ current Secretary of State, Jesse White, in which the latter purported to waive the Office’s attorney-client privilege as to all of Bickel’s official conversations with “all personnel and officials of the Secretary of State, regardless of their particular position or office.” Ryan continued to oppose all efforts to obtain allegedly privileged information from Bickel.
On September 7, 2001, the district court granted the United States’ motion to compel, finding that no attorney-client privilege attached to the communications at issue, and, alternatively, that if a privilege did attach. White had effectively waived it. While the motion to compel does not create a final judgment, we permit clients to immediately appeal a court order that their attorney testify before a grand jury under the exception recognized in
Perlman v. United States,
II
We review
de novo
the question whether Ryan may invoke the attorney-client privilege to shield Bickel’s testimony before the federal grand jury. See
Upjohn Co. v. United States,
One of the oldest and most widely recognized privileges is the attorney-client privilege, which protects confidential communications ' made between clients and their attorneys for the purpose of securing legal advice.
Swidler & Berlin v. United States,
In.the case of private parties, the privilege functions identically in both civil and
*292
criminal proceedings.
Swidler,
The first question we face is whether recognizing a privilege in this case would be an expansion of the current scope of the attorney-client privilege, or if a refusal to recognize the privilege would amount to a contraction of an existing privilege. Although this may seem like two sides of the same coin, it is not: the Supreme Court has instructed us, in developing a federal common law of privileges, to avoid either derogating existing privileges or extending privileges to new, uncharted waters absent compelling considerations.
Jaffee v. Redmond,
While
Swidler
rejected a civil-criminal distinction for the privilege as to individuals, other courts have recognized that the governmental context is different, even after that decision, and have limited the privilege for governmental agencies in the criminal context. See
Lindsey,
Ryan argues that they do. His main contention is that the attorney-client privilege has been created “to encourage full and frank communication between attorneys and their clients and thereby promote broader public interests in the observance of law and the administration of justice.”
Upjohn,
While we recognize the need for full and frank communication between government officials, we are more persuaded by the serious arguments against extending the attorney-client privilege to protect communications between government lawyers and the public officials they serve when criminal proceedings are at issue. First, government lawyers have responsibilities and obligations different from those facing members of the private bar. While the latter are appropriately concerned first and foremost with protecting their clients — even those engaged in wrongdoing — from criminal charges and public exposure, government lawyers have a higher, competing duty to act in the public interest.
Lindsey,
This discussion necessarily points out another crucial difference between a government lawyer’s clients and the clients of other lawyers. Individuals and corporations are both subject to criminal liability for their transgressions. Individuals will not talk and corporations will have no in
*294
centive to conduct or cooperate in internal investigations if they know that any information disclosed may be turned over to authorities.
Swidler,
In formulating privileges, this court cannot ignore the interests and responsibilities of the coordinate entities within our federal system, all of which are sworn to uphold the public interest and committed to the “general duty of public service.”
Duces Tecum,
In the final analysis, reason and experience dictate that the lack of criminal liability for government agencies and the duty of public lawyers to uphold the law and foster an open and accountable government outweigh any need for a privilege in this context. An officeholder wary of becoming enmeshed in illegal acts may always consult with a private attorney, and there the privilege unquestionably would apply. While Ryan fears that our refusal to recognize a privilege will cause even the most trivial of matters to be taken to outside counsel, this strikes us as unduly alarmist. In fact, analogous rules apply in the corporate realm, where attorneys are repeatedly admonished to advise corporate officials that they are not personal clients of the attorney and may wish to retain other counsel. These rules do not appear to have stifled corporate discussion or proved impossible to administer, and we see no reason why a similar result cannot be countenanced here.
Ryan makes one final argument in favor of his assertion of a governmental privilege: in a word, federalism. He notes that the two leading cases in this area involved the assertion of a privilege by a lawyer for the federal government, vis á vis a federal investigation. From this, he argues that even if federal attorneys lack an attorney-client privilege in criminal proceedings, state-employed attorneys
*295
should receive one. See
Grand Jury Subpoena,
Although we recognize the importance of federalism in general, we do not see its relevance to the present situation. Neither of the cases on which Ryan relies offered a square holding that an attorney-client privilege exists between state government lawyers and their state clients that can override the interests of a federal grand jury. The Eighth Circuit’s assertion is
dicta,
and the Sixth Circuit never analyzed the unique features of a government-attorney-client privilege, as it was focused almost entirely on the question whether the attorney’s advice in that case was even confidential under state law.
Grand Jury Subpoena,
Finally, we note that the federal courts have never afforded an evidentiary privilege to the states that is not also afforded to the federal government. In fact, the most pertinent case from the Supreme Court cuts the other way. In
United States v. Gillock,
Ill
The district court also determined that the current Secretary of State, Secretary White, was the holder of his Office’s attorney-client privilege and had the power to waive that privilege as to conversations occurring before he took office. In light of our holding that none of the conversations between Bickel and Ryan made in their official capacities as General Counsel and Secretary of State are privileged in the face of a federal grand jury subpoena, we express no opinion on this determination. *296 The judgment of the district court is Affirmed.
Notes
. Of course, a state may provide an officeholder with an individual taxpayer-provided attorney to represent her in, for example, a Bivens action or an independent counsel investigation and could perhaps even specify by statute that the first duty of an agency's general counsel ran always to the head of the agency as individual rather than officer. Here, however, there is no indication that Illinois has abrogated the traditional understanding that an organizational attorney’s client is the organization.
