This case involves a petition for review and a cross-application for enforcement of an order of the National Labor Relations Board. The Board found that the company, Gulf States Manufacturers, Inc., had committed unfair labor practices by (1) denying an employee his right to union representation at an interview where the company sought facts to support disciplinary action, and (2) on two occasions deciding to lay off employees without giving the union an opportunity to bargain over the decision. We enforce the findings of unfair labor practices, but deny enforcement of the back-pay remedy for the layoffs and remand the case to the Board for further findings.
I. FACTUAL AND PROCEDURAL BACKGROUND.
Gulf States manufactures prefabricated metal buildings, a product that is apparently subject to sudden and unpredictable changes in demand. The International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, Iron Ship Builders, Blacksmiths, Forgers and Helpers has represented the employees at Gulf States’ Starkville, Mississippi, plant since 1975. Labor relations at the Starkville plant have been the subject of earlier litigation before this court,
Gulf States Manufacturers, Inc. v. NLRB,
A. The Weingarten Issue.
Vincent Scott, an employee of Gulf States, developed a back problem in February, 1980. He consulted a doctor, who allegedly prescribed medicine that made Scott dizzy. Scott was later assigned to do a job that he believed he should not do because of the dizziness; he refused to perform the work and consequently received a written disciplinary warning on February 13, 1980. Also on February 13, Scott left work early without notifying the supervisor for whom he was to have worked.
The next day, Wayne Eaves, a Gulf States supervisor, told Scott that Production Manager Jerry Schwichtenberg wanted to see Scott. On the way to Schwichtenberg’s office, Scott asked Eaves whether Ed Thompson, a Gulf States employee and president of the union local, could be present at the interview. Eaves told Scott that Thompson would not be allowed to attend because the company was not bargaining with the union. 1
The meeting was attended by Scott, Eaves, Schwichtenberg, and two other Gulf States supervisors. Schwichtenberg told Scott that it had been decided to give him a written disciplinary notice for his failure to remain at work the preceding day. Scott protested that the disciplinary action was motivated by anti-union animus, then proffered an explanation for the early departure: he had left his medication at home. Schwichtenberg asked him why he had not told his immediate supervisor that he was leaving; 2 Scott replied that he had had words with the supervisor earlier in the day and consequently did not wish to speak to *1393 that supervisor again, and he saw no other supervisors in the area at the time. Schwichtenberg then gave Scott the disciplinary notice, which had been prepared before the meeting, and the interview concluded after several more remarks by Schwichtenberg and Scott. At no time during the interview did Scott repeat his request for union representation.
B. The Layoff Issue.
Gulf States laid off employees on March 10 and April 8, 1980. Each layoff involved twenty-one people. The company first notified the union of the March layoff ten or fifteen minutes before it occurred. The company knew that there would be a layoff and who would be laid off two days in advance, but it did not provide the union with a list of the affected employees until several days after the layoff. When he was informed of the layoff, the union president, Thompson, inquired if it was by seniority and whether the laid-off workers were subject to recall; both questions were answered affirmatively. Several weeks later, Thompson met with a company official to determine why more senior employees had been laid off while less senior ones had been retained. The company official explained that the layoff had been by seniority within each job classification, not by seniority at the plant, and that the more senior laid-off workers had been in less vital jobs than the less senior retained workers. ■
The sequence of events surrounding the April layoff was virtually identical to that narrated above. The only respect in which the April layoff differed from the March one was that in April Thompson was not notified of the layoff until after he had observed the laid-off workers turning in their hardhats and identification as they left the plant before the end of their shift.
C. The Unfair Labor Practice Proceedings.
The union filed unfair labor practice charges based on the Scott-Schwichtenberg interview, the layoffs, and several other occurrences. After a hearing, the administrative law judge found that the company’s refusal to allow Thompson to accompany Scott to the interview did not violate section 8(a)(1) of the National Labor Relations Act, 29 U.S.C.§ 158(a)(1) (1976), as interpreted in
NLRB v. J. Weingarten, Inc.,
Under the circumstances of this case and in the absence of evidence showing the Union sought to negotiate over the continuation or termination of the layoffs, but rather it appears sought only to negotiate the manner and means of the layoff and recall, I shall therefore not recommend any backpay as any part of the remedy.
1 Record at 387.
The company and the General Counsel both filed exceptions to the ALJ’s opinion and order. The Board reversed the ALJ’s finding that the company’s refusal to let a union official accompany Scott at his meeting with Schwichtenberg did not violate section 8(a)(1) of the Act. The Board based its finding on its view that the company went beyond merely informing Scott of predetermined disciplinary action when Schwichtenberg asked him why he had left without telling a supervisor. The Board reasoned that the inquiry sought facts to support the disciplinary action, and therefore fell outside the Baton Rouge Water Works exception to the Weingarten rule. Since it found that no disciplinary action had been based on the unlawful interview, however, the Board merely issued a cease- and-desist order.
On the layoff issue, the Board affirmed the ALJ’s finding that the company violated section 8(a)(5) and (1), but parted compa *1394 ny from him over the appropriateness of back pay. Stating that, had there been bargaining, “the employees laid off clearly would have been employed until completion of the bargaining,” 1 Record at 402-03, the Board ordered full back pay for each of the laid-off workers from the date of his or her layoff until one of four conditions was met: (1) the company and the union reached agreement on all mandatory subjects of bargaining; (2) good-faith bargaining resulted in a bona fide impasse; (3) the union failed to begin bargaining within five days of receipt of a company request to bargain; or (4) the union failed to bargain in good faith.
The company filed a motion for reconsideration, the General Counsel filed an opposition to the motion, and the company filed a response to the General Counsel’s opposition. The Board denied reconsideration. The company then petitioned this court for review of the Board’s decision and the Board cross-applied for enforcement.
The company makes five objections to the Board’s decision. First, the company contends that the Scott-Schwichtenberg meeting fell within the
Baton Rouge Water Works
exception to
Weingarten,
or alternatively, that Scott did not effectively invoke his
Weingarten
right to be accompanied by a union representative. Next, it contests the finding of a refusal to bargain over the layoffs by offering three separate theories under which it had no duty to bargain: that the layoffs fell within the range of management prerogatives held in
First National Maintenance Corp. v. NLRB,
II. THE WEINGARTEN ISSUE.
In
NLRB v. J. Weingarten, Inc.,
The company does argue, however, that Scott did not supply the second prerequisite of Weingarten: a request for union representation. The company’s position is that only Schwichtenberg knew what the scope of the interview would be, so Scott’s request to Eaves was insufficient to invoke Weingarten. Because Scott never repeated his request to Schwichtenberg, the company contends that no Weingarten right arose.
This line of argument has a fatal flaw: it is foreclosed by this court’s decision in
Lennox Industries, Inc. v. NLRB,
The company’s alternative argument rests on the exception to
Weingarten
that the Board established in
Baton Rouge Water Works Co.,
[Ujnder the Supreme Court’s decision in Weingarten, an employee has no Section 7 right to the presence of his union representative at a meeting with his employer *1395 held solely for the purpose of informing the employee of, and acting upon, a previously made disciplinary decision.
We stress that we are not holding today that there is no right to the presence of a union representative at any “disciplinary” interview. Indeed, if the employer engages in any conduct beyond merely informing the employee of a previously made disciplinary decision, the full panoply of protections accorded the employee under Weingarten may be applicable. Thus, for example, were the employer to inform the employee of a disciplinary action and then seek facts or evidence in support of that action . .., such conduct would remove the meeting from the narrow holding of the instant ease, and the employee’s right to union representation would attach.
(emphasis in original). This court adopted
Baton Rouge Water Works
in
Anchortank, Inc. v. NLRB,
The AU found that the ScottSchwichtenberg interview fell within
Baton Rouge Water Works;
the Board found that it did not. The company naturally urges that the ALJ was correct, but we must uphold the Board’s view if it is supported by substantial evidence in the record.
Universal Camera Corp.
v.
NLRB,
It is true that Scott apparently initiated the conversation about the circumstances of his early departure and did most of the talking, but nonetheless we cannot say that the Board’s finding was not supported by substantial evidence. The ALJ expressly credited Scott’s testimony that Schwichtenberg asked him why he had left without informing a supervisor. The Board held that that question, coupled with the nature of the discussion, amounted to an attempt to “seek facts or evidence in support of [the disciplinary] action,”
Baton Rouge Water Works,
The company points to the statement in Baton Rouge Water Works that “the fact that the employer and employee thereafter engage[] in a conversation at the employee’s behest or instigation concerning the reasons for the previously determined discipline will not, alone, convert the meeting to an interview at which the Weingarten protections apply.” Id. at 997. The Board clearly found that Scott’s conversation with Schwichtenberg did not fit this description, and there is ample basis in the record for that finding. Scott did instigate the conversation, but the resulting discussion was not confined to an explanation of the reasons for the decision to discipline him; rather, the Board could and did find that Schwichtenberg sought evidence to justify the discipline. The language cited by the company is thus inapplicable.
Since the Board’s decision is based on the relevant law and supported by substantial evidence in the record, we find no merit in the company’s objections to the ruling that Scott was denied his Weingarten right. The company has not objected to the Board’s selection of a cease-and-desist order as an appropriate remedy for that violation. We therefore enforce the portion of the Board’s order finding that the company’s refusal of Scott’s request for a union representative violated section 8(a)(1) and ordering the company to cease and desist from such violations.
III. THE FAILURE-TO-BARGAIN ISSUE.
The ALJ found, and the Board affirmed the finding that the March and April, 1980, layoffs had involved a unilateral change of working conditions without notice to or bargaining with the union, and consequently that the company had violated section 8(a)(5) and (1) of the Act. The company presents us with three independent theories, under each of which it had no duty to bargain with the union over the decision. The first is that the Supreme Court decision
*1396
in
First National Maintenance Corp. v. NLRB,
A. First National Maintenance.
There is a basic procedural problem with the company’s attempt to argue that
First National Maintenance Corp. v. NLRB,
The company points out that this court has held that the rendition of the Supreme Court’s opinion in
First National Maintenance
was precisely such an extraordinary circumstance.
NLRB v. Robin American Corp.,
Robin American is, however, easily distinguishable from this case. Here, the AU’s decision was rendered on January 30, 1981, almost five months before First National Maintenance came down on June 22, 1981, but the Board’s decision in this litigation was not issued until May 13, 1982, nearly eleven months after First National Maintenance. Nevertheless, the company did not raise the issue before the Board, either by a supplement to its objections to the ALJ’s decision or in its motion for reconsideration of the Board’s decision.
The company argues that
Robin American
does nonetheless control, because a party need not file a motion for reconsideration with the Board as a prerequisite to appeal. For this proposition, it cites
Universal Security Instruments, Inc. v. NLRB,
In a case in which the parties have been made aware that an issue would or could be decided by the Board, and the parties have taken the chance to present their sides of the issue to the Board and the Board has issued its decision, the failure to request reconsideration under the regulation does not bar the losing party from citing the issue on appeal.
This case does not involve such a situation: the First National Maintenance issue was never raised below. Further, we note that there seems to have been no reason why the company could not have raised the First National Maintenance issue in the original Board proceedings by making a supplemental filing with the Board during the eleven months between the First National Maintenance decision and the Board’s decision in this case. We thus find Universal Security and Robin American inapplicable here.
The company next falls back on the position that the issue of management prerogative actually was argued before the Board, even though
First National Maintenance
was never mentioned, and thus that we should view the question as having been adequately presented to the Board. We decline this invitation. In the first place, we can find no record that the company did argue management prerogative to the
*1397
Board. Further, given the change that
First National Maintenance
wrought in the law,
see Robin American, supra,
We therefore find no extraordinary circumstance to excuse the company’s failure to raise the
First National Maintenance
issue before the Board. We consequently have no jurisdiction to consider the issue.
Woelke & Romero Framing, Inc. v. NLRB,
B. Waiver.
The company’s second defense to the refusal-to-bargain charge is that the union waived its right to bargain over the layoffs by failing to protest them. It is, however, well established that a union cannot be held to have waived bargaining over a change that is presented to it as a
fait accompli. NLRB v. Crystal Springs Shirt Corp.,
In this case, the ALJ found that the union first learned of the March and April, 1980, layoffs (and also a layoff in March, 1979, which is not at issue here but on which the company also predicates the waiver argument) fifteen minutes or less before they took effect. Those findings are supported by uncontradicted evidence; it is hard to conceive of a set of facts that show less opportunity for bargaining.
The company has laid great emphasis on
NLRB v. Southern Coach & Body Co.,
The evidence does not support the company’s waiver defense. We thus move on to the company’s final objection to the failure-to-bargain finding.
C. Impasse.
The company’s final defense to the finding that the layoffs violated its duty to bargain with the union is based on the panel opinion in the earlier
Gulf States
case.
Gulf States Manufacturers, Inc. v. NLRB,
At the outset, we note that it is quite doubtful that this issue was properly presented to the Board. The company’s objections to the ALJ’s report espoused the theory that the company and the union had agreed on layoff procedures in the 1975-76 negotiations and that the 1980 layoffs were in accordance with those procedures. See, e.g., Respondent’s Cross-Exceptions to Decision by Administrative Law Judge, 1 Record at 394 (“the layoff section of the seniority policy was a subject of negotiations between Gulf States and the Union over which agreement had been reached”); see also id. at 393, 395-97. 5 The impasse issue made its first appearance before the Board in the company’s motion for reconsideration.
The Board’s regulations provide that “[a] party to a proceeding before the Board may, because of extraordinary circumstances, move for reconsideration .. . after the Board decision or order. A motion for reconsideration shall state with particularity the material error claimed . ... ” 29 C.P.R. § 102.48(d)(1) (1982). It seems unlikely that “extraordinary circumstances” include a party’s decision to pursue a new legal theory, when that theory was equally available in the original Board proceedings, nor does it appear to be “material error” for the Board not to decide issues not raised before it. This is particularly true where, as here, evaluation of the theory requires detailed reference to the facts.
The question remains, however, whether the issue was sufficiently raised to preserve it for appellate review even if the Board was justified in refusing to address it. Section 10(e) of the Act, 29 U.S.C. § 160(e), bars only objections that have “not been urged before the Board ...;” arguably this issue was “urged,” however belatedly. Nor does
Woelke & Romero Framing, Inc. v. NLRB,
While we find it extremely doubtful that the company’s presentation of the impasse argument to the Board was adequate to preserve it for appeal, we need not decide the question today, for in any event the impasse defense must fail. The impasse noted in the prior
Gulf States
decision occurred in February, 1976. Between that time and the occurrence of the layoffs in question here, over four years elapsed. During that time, there was a six-day strike in February, 1976; there were further negotiations in 1976, in which the parties moved closer to agreement,
Gulf States, supra,
We do not think that the impasse persisted until the spring of 1980. Whether an impasse exists depends on whether, in view of all the circumstances of the bargaining, further discussions would be futile.
Huck Manufacturing Co. v. NLRB,
In this case, the 1976 impasse apparently extended to all issues. Since then, there had been successful negotiation on wages, as well as a strike, two decisions by this court, a decertification election won by the union, and the passage of four years’ time. Under these circumstances, it seems clear that the impasse did not persist until the spring of 1980, and thus does not excuse the failure to bargain over the layoffs. 7
We have rejected all of the company’s defenses to the finding that the March and April, 1980, layoffs violated its duty to bargain under section 8(a)(5) and (1) of the Act. We therefore enforce the portion of the Board’s order that holds that the failures to bargain were unfair labor practices. IY. BACKPAY. '
As a remedy for the failure to bargain over the layoffs, the Board ordered that the company pay full back wages to all of the laid-off employees for the period from the date of each one’s layoff until one of the following conditions is met: (1) the company and the union reach agreement on all mandatory subjects of bargaining; (2) they reach impasse; (3) the union fails to begin negotiations promptly upon request; or (4) the union fails to bargain in good faith. The company vigorously protests the award, alleging that since its economic condition would have required that the layoffs be made at the same times and in the same numbers even had there been bargaining, the award of back pay is punitive.
The General Counsel claims that the company never raised this issue before the Board. We disagree. The ALJ denied back pay, so the company had no grounds for objection until after the Board’s decision. While it is not a model of clarity, the motion for reconsideration does raise the back-pay issue. See Motion for Reconsideration, 1 Record at 409-10 (“[T]he panel has ... assessed] penalties (referred to as remedies) .... The panel may continue to prefer [different layoff procedures], but it may not impose such terms by means of a backpay remedy.”); id. at 415 (avoiding the expense of appellate review in the interest of all parties, “particularly that of Respondent in view of the continued recession which necessitated the 1980 layoffs.”). 8 We *1400 therefore proceed to consider the propriety of the back-pay award.
The rule in the Fifth Circuit is that a back pay or restitution order will not be enforced where the result of enforcement would be to put the worker in a better position than he would have been in without the violation. In
NLRB v. Haberman Construction Co.,
The employer in
Armstrong Rubber Co. v. NLRB,
This court refused to enforce an order of restitution for a Christmas bonus which was discontinued without bargaining, where it was shown that the company was in such dire financial straits that the bonus would in all probability not have been paid even had there been bargaining and the company had never otherwise obstructed bargaining.
NLRB
v.
Citizens Hotel Co.,
This Fifth Circuit law is generally consistent with that of other circuits.
See Universal Security Instruments, Inc. v. NLRB,
There thus would be considerable support for denial of enforcement of the back pay order here had there been a finding that the company’s economic condition would have led to the employees’ being laid off when they were even if there had been bargaining. Such a finding would play the role of the finding in Haberman that the employees would have refused subsequent jobs if they had been offered, or the finding in Citizens Hotel that the company would not have paid bonuses even if there had been bargaining.
This case, however, is more like Armstrong Rubber, for while there is considerable evidence that the layoffs would have occurred even if there had been bargaining, there is nothing which this court can identify as a finding to that effect in either the ALJ’s opinion or the Board’s. The Board stated that it was ordering back pay because “the employees laid off clearly would have been employed until completion of the bargaining.” 1 Record at 402-03. The Board, however, did not find how long the bargaining would have continued. It also did not find that bargaining would have resulted in an agreement that would have prevented the layoffs. The ALJ, in turn, denied back pay on the basis of a somewhat obscure theory apparently related to the union’s failure to request bargaining over the continuation or termination of the layoffs. Id. at 387. The AU did find that the company never knew of the need for layoffs very far in advance, but his only treatment of the evidence that these layoffs would have been made in any event was to reject it as a defense to the refusal-to-bargain charge. Id. at 386. Since it was not a valid defense to that charge, 9 he did not find whether it had been proved.
The company, however, introduced considerable evidence that its economic condition would have required the layoffs even if there had been bargaining. Its controller testified at some length about the depressed state of its business at the time of the layoffs, and introduced charts showing the decline in backlog during the relevant periods. We remand the case to the Board to determine whether and by how much bargaining would have delayed the layoffs. 10
*1402 V. CONCLUSION.
We find no merit in any of the company’s challenges to the Board’s unfair labor practice rulings. The finding of a violation of Scott’s Weingarten right is supported by substantial evidence. Of the objections to the refusal-to-bargain findings, the First National Maintenance issue was not properly presented to the Board, and the default is not excused by “extraordinary circumstances;” the impasse and waiver arguments are unsupported by the evidence. We therefore enforce the portions of the Board’s order that found that the company had committed unfair labor practices by denying Scott’s request for union representation and by laying off workers in March and April, 1980, without notification to or bargaining with the union. We also enforce the cease- and.-desist order the Board issued as a remedy for the Weingarten violation.
We deny enforcement, however, to the Board’s order of back pay as a remedy for the refusals to bargain. We remand the case to the Board for a finding on whether bargaining would have resulted in any change in the number or timing of the layoffs, or whether the company’s economic situation would have required the layoffs in any event.
ENFORCEMENT GRANTED IN PART; ENFORCEMENT DENIED AND CASE REMANDED IN PART.
Notes
. The company and the union did not have any bargaining sessions between late 1977 and October, 1980. We note, however, that Eaves’ response was inappropriate: contract bargaining and
Weingarten
representation are not related functions (except, of course, to the extent that they both implement the employees’ right to act collectively).
See NLRB v. J. Weingarten, Inc.,
. The company challenges the ALJ’s finding that Schwichtenberg asked this question, since at the hearing Schwichtenberg denied having asked it. The ALJ resolved a conflict between Schwichtenberg’s testimony and Scott’s statement that the question was asked by choosing to believe Scott’s version. Such a credibility choice is entitled to affirmance unless it is “inherently unreasonable or self-contradictory.” Armstrong
Rubber Co.
v.
NLRB,
. This finding was adopted by the en banc court.
Gulf States, supra,
. Impasse is a potential defense to a failure-to-bargain charge because, when' impasse has been reached after good-faith bargaining, the company is free to implement unilaterally any proposal that it made to the union during the negotiations.
Huck Mfg. Co. v. NLRB,
. This theory has not been raised before this court.
. This finding was adopted by the en banc court.
Gulf States, supra,
. We believe that the company’s argument is that the impasse persisted throughout the period of the layoffs. The company’s briefs are not entirely clear on the matter, however, and it is possible that it is instead arguing that the 1980 layoffs were pursuant to a proposal made to the union during the 1975-76 negotiations and implemented during the 1976 impasse. We also find that argument unpersuasive.
The ALJ found that the company did not follow a consistent layoff procedure, but rather laid employees off by departmental seniority in 1979 and by job classification seniority in 1980. 1 Record at 385. This finding is supported by substantial evidence. Even if the layoffs did all follow the same procedure, there is no evidence showing when the company decided to implement that procedure, so we could not determine whether it was instituted during an impasse. We therefore reject this version of the impasse defense, also.
. The General Counsel filed an opposition to the company’s motion for reconsideration, and the company filed a response to the opposition.
*1400
That response raises the back-pay issue explicitly and at length. We can find no authority in the regulations to file such a response, and the fact that the Board did not include it in the record on appeal leaves us in doubt as to the propriety of such a filing. Even if it is proper, we presume that such a response is an inappropriate vehicle for raising an issue not mentioned in the motion for reconsideration.
Cf. Knighten v. Comm'r,
. See
Fibreboard Paper Prods. Corp. v. NLRB,
. We deem it appropriate to discuss one further issue, although no party has raised it here. In some cases, the Board has argued that any proof that certain employees would not have had jobs for reasons other than unfair labor practices should be left for compliance proceedings. This argument has had some success.
See NLRB v. J.S. Alberici Construction Co.,
*1402 In Fort Vancouver Plywood Co., as in Great Chinese American Sewing Co., it was clear that some back pay was owed. By contrast, if the company proves its contention that the layoffs would have occurred when and as they did even if there had been bargaining, no back pay would be owed in this case. The Board’s order requires that the company pay all of the Iaid-off employees “their normal wages” for the over three-year minimum period. The situation thus resembles that of the reinstatement order in Fort Vancouver Plywood Co., and therefore we, like the Ninth Circuit, should not defer the issue to compliance proceedings.
