Opinion by
This is an appeal from a denial without hearing of a petition under the Post Conviction Hearing Act. Appellant originally pled guilty to murder generally and his degree of guilt hearing resulted in a сonviction for first degree felony-murder. No appeal was taken from this conviction; but this petition represents appellant’s third attempt at collateral relief. His first application for a writ of habeas corpus was denied without a hearing. His second application was also denied without a hearing with this Court affirming the disposition.
Commonwealth ex rel. Zaffina v. Maroney,
The Commonwealth initially questions the legal necessity of granting appellant the right to direct appeal. It bases this argument on our holdings in
Commonwealth v. Walters,
*438
But in
Walters
and
Stokes
we made it quite clear that this rationale did not apply in those cases where the petitioner had been found guilty of first degree murder. “Since the Commonwealth is required to prove the elements of first degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt ... a defendant so convicted (who pleads guilty) may have other errors to press оn direct review (in addition to the validity of his plea and legality of sentence).”
Stokes,
supra at 268 n.5,
The Commonwealth advances several grounds for denying petitioner his right to appeal, once we decide that his right to appeal is a meaningful one. First, it' contends that the record contradicts petitioner’s claim that he did not make a knowing and intelligent waiver of his right of appeal. On the record before us we cannot agree that such a waiver has been shown. The Commonwealth directs our attention to appellant’s post conviction hearing act рetition which asserts “Appointed counsel visited petitioner a couple of times. On each occasion petitioner asked that counsel do something about his case, and on each occasion counsel only replied: ‘leave it alone.’ ” This statement is not proof that appellant
knew
that he had a right to appeal. But assuming that it is, it cеrtainly does not demonstrate that 1) he intelligently and voluntarily waived his right to appeal, 2) he knew that he had a right to counsel on appeal and 3) he knew he had a right to free counsel if indigent. In
*439
Commonwealth v. Wilson,
Nor does the hearing judge’s independent inquiry into thе validity of petitioner’s allegations persuade us that dismissal without hearing was appropriate. The order of the court below dismissing the petition states “[petitioner] was represented by Jacob E. Kalson, an experienced and able member of the bar. Mr. Kalson has informed the Court that he remembered the case well and remembered quite clearly that Frank Daniel Zaffina was ‘satisfied’ with the sentence he received. Mr. Kalson was quite certain that Zaffina never indicated in any manner that he was desirous of any further action following his sеntencing.” The hearing judge’s conclusion must be rejected and his manner of reaching it disapproved. The Post Conviction Hearing Act, Act of January 25, 1966, P. L. (1965) 1580, 19 P.S. §1180-9 explicitly provides that the petitiоner shall have a “full and fair hearing on his petition.” It then goes on to guarantee additional safeguards: the presence of the petitioner and a record of the proсeedings. All of this was clearly ignored when the judge undertook on his own and in an ex parte informal fashion to review and consider evidence not *440 presented by the litigants and not properly of record. * The testimony of petitioner’s trial counsel is crucial to the validity of petitioner’s claim; certainly it should be sworn to, offered in open court in the usual manner and subject to the often telling exploration by cross-examination. None of these traditional and statutorily prescribed safeguards were present here.
Nor do we find persuasive the conclusion of the hearing judge that Mr. Halson is “an experienced and able member of the bar.” While this finding is not questioned, it is hardly dispositive of the issue whether on this occasion the appellant was fully informed of his right to appeal and knоwingly and intelligently waived this right. What we said above applies with equal force here: whenever the facts alleged by petitioner indicate that he is entitled to a hearing, the hearing judgе may never take it upon himself to substitute an off-the-record informal inquiry of his own for the required on-the-record evidentiary hearing procedure.
The Commonwealth also claims that thе dismissal of the petition could be affirmed because the petitioner failed to allege facts “that if proven would entitle the petitioner to relief.” The crux of this argument is that instеad of pleading facts the petition pleaded conclusions. We need not become involved in the often fruitless and frustrating controversy over the difference between facts and conclusions, since it seems abun
*441
dantly clear to us that when petitioner avers: “Thereafter, court-appointed counsel abandoned petitioner leaving him without аny means to prepare, take or perfect an appeal. . . .” he pleads a fact, i.e., abandonment, which, if proven,
would
entitle him to relief.
Commonwealth v. Stokes,
Since there has yet been no hearing in the instant case, it is appropriate that we remand for an evidentiary hearing. This will afford the Commonwealth the opportunity to demonstrate that the appellant knew
*442
of Ms
Douglas
rights as set forth in
Wilson,
and that he knowingly and intelligently waived those rights. If the Commonwealth fails to meet this burden, it still will have the opportunity to show that appellant learned of his
Douglas
rights prior to the filing of either of his collateral attacks, and knowingly аnd intelligently failed to include the
Douglas
claim in either of his earlier petitions. Unless one of these burdens is met, the appellant is entitled to a direct appeal.
Mumford,
supra at 456-57,
Order vacated and record remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
Notes
This action on the part of the hearing judge is reminiscent of similar action we found objectionable in
Commonwealth ex rel. Green v. Rundle,
